How do you define traditional?

[Stormrider51]

Having gotten back into muzzleloading after a 10+ year hiatus when I shot trad bows, I've been doing some thinking about this sport.  I was educated into frontstuffing in the late 1950's by my father.  I've seen a lot of changes since then.  In the 50's we didn't have store-bought products like lubes, solvents, and whatever.  My dad would have died before he carried a plastic container of anything to the range.  The guns we shot were either customs or originals.  I remember asking my dad why we used lard as a patch lube instead of bear grease like I'd read about in a Davy Crockett story.  He said that if we ever shoot a bear we will try it.  Patch material was generally pillow ticking bought by the yard, washed, and cut into handy strips.  The only way I ever saw pre-cut patches was if they were in a loading block ready to be run home down the bore.  I could go on but you get the idea.  We made as much of our gear as possible and used supplies that were readily available.  In so doing were probably emulating what our forefathers did whether we consciously intended to or not.  I don't know about yours, but my forebears were not rich people.  Neither were we.

Then came the 1970's and the BiCentennial.  Suddenly it seemed like everybody discovered muzzleloading.  Where there's a market there will be those who supply it.  There was a flood of everything from factory-made guns to all sorts of products guaranteed to make our shooting better and easier.  I noticed an interesting trend.  Folks would dress in "period correct" clothing to go shoot their muzzleloaders and then use factory-made products to make the shooting/cleaning easier.  I had to chuckle.  Folks who researched clothing and accessories to reproduce an exact time in history were using "Bore Butter".

Of course, we all know where things finally went.  Muzzleloaders with plastic stocks that are muzzleloaders in name only.  Jacketed pistol bullets stuck in plastic sabots in place of patched balls.  Powder pellets.  I actually find it very funny but that's not my point or question if I have either one.

Here I am in the Year of Our Lord 2011, eyeballing the end of my span, and I'm still using lard as a lube and making as much of my gear as possible.  I go to a shoot and someone asks me "What lube you using?"  "Lard" I reply.  "Here, try some of mine" is always the answer.  I politely decline.  "You're cutting patches at the muzzle?  Want to try some of my pre-cuts?  It's faster."  "Nope, I'm doin just fine thanks."  And so it goes.  That's me over there, the guy wearing period-incorrect jeans, boots, and a t-shirt who's shooting out of the bag and has lard on his fingers.  I've tried taking a "range box" to a few shoots recently.  Now I'm back to a powder horn, shooting bag, and a possibles bag.  Anything that's not immediately used in the loading, firing, and wiping of the rifle is in the possibles bag.  I could pick up those two bags, horn, and rifle and walk out the door for a day or week in the woods if needs be.  That's the way I like it.  Makes me feel free and unencumbered.

Now I'm not out to make anyone feel defensive.  I'm certainly not out to create any arguments.  I really honestly sincerely don't care how you go about the pursuit of our hobby.  It's all in fun.  But I'm curious as to how you choose to do this muzzleloading thing and why?  I'm asking you to tell the story of your journey in muzzleloading should you care to do so.  I'd like to listen.

John

[Bigsmoke]

Started with revolvers in the 1960's.  Like you say, back then, there wasn't a lot of commercial stuff on the market so we'd buy a bag of shot, use the ones that fit and shoot the others in a slingshot.  Grease over the top and go make smoke.
Took a break to dress in OD green for three years, then got back into the pistols.  Then my wife bought me a Renegade for my birthday.  No round balls available in town, so i started casting my own.  Then the entrepauner (sp?) part of my mind went into overdrive, and right then and there, I decided to be someone that provided to the needs of the shooters, first on a small scale, then larger and larger over time.  Started up two little companies, then bought three more.  As I wind down, I am still working one of them making powder horns.  Sure I am not the most proficient horner in the world, but I sure think I am the most prolific.  Seems like I have skipped a step;  most people work all their life so they can retire just to play in their shop.  I just have been playing in my shop for the last 30 years or so.
When I got started, I was pretty heavy into the shooting part of the sport.  Now, not so much.  I only get out to the range two or three times a year.  I still try to go to a few rendezvous each year, but it has been a while since I have set up in primitive area.  The local shoots are on Sundays here, and i would rather go to church.
That's the Cliff Notes version of the story.
John

[mario]

Well, IMHO there is "Traditional", "Historical" and there is "Target".

"Historical" is that which emulates pre CW/WBTS shooting. Pre-cut patches (that's what the patchbox was for, after all), wadding for a smoothbore instead of a patched ball, utilizing copies of actual period guns. This is what I do.

"Traditional" is that which grew from the old time Appalachian hunters/shooters and the writings of several authors (like Ned Roberts for example). Strips of material cut on the muzzle, lard for patch lube, loading blocks, etc. This is who folks learned from during the revival of ML in the early part of the 20th century and what the NMLRA grew out of. Using guns that were similar in style to "Historical" but not actually copies of anything.

"Target" is a combination of the "Traditional" with the modern philosophy of consumerism. "If this product makes my group go from 1.124" to 1.120" than I must have it" thinking.

Just my two pence.

Mario

[rickevans]

Mario...nicely identified I think. I started "traditional" but am moving more to "historical" in some practices. As I mature...er make that grow older...I am more interested in the rifles and smooth bores and their accouterments and getting out to enjoy a walk or hunt with like minded souls. I have killed plenty of deer, and enough big bucks to satisfy my bragging needs.

My sights are now more set on a fat doe or two for the freezer and trying, as best we can replicate it, what kind of hunt my ancestors had 200+ years back. But most important is having fun, learning something and enjoying life outdoors.

[prairie dog]

It's an interesting topic, traditional or modern.  I got started with muzzle loading during the 1970's as a more challenging method for hunting deer.  I was interested in being "historical and traditional".  There was no special season for hunting with a muzzle loader so my only motivation to use one was for the nostalgia of doing it the old way.  

There wasn't a lot of information available to me at the time so I used what products I could get.  I've always shot patched round ball and Goex black powder.  It wasn't until I started going to rendezvous that I began to cut ticking at the muzzle.  For me it's been a journey of research to get as close as I can to the way it was done back then.  I'm still researching and refining my methods but the journey is half the fun.  

Today I find myself with two different set ups for loading and shooting.  I have the bag and horn set up for hunting and rendezvous and a range box set up for club matches.  For me the greatest difference between the two is my lube and patching.  I will use spit and ticking in the field but at matches I am using blue denim patching with moose milk lube.  The latter load is tight and I use a short starter and a mallet to get it going.  

At matches I'm willing to give up some degree of PC to be competitive.  In the field I go as PC as I can and find that accurate enough for hunting and the informal shooting matches at rendezvous.


I have zero interest in modern in-line muzzle loading guns, pryodex, and jacketed bullets.  If I'm not hunting with a traditional muzzle loader I'd rather use a scoped center fire rifle.

[FlintSteel]

I was one that came to this in the early 70s due to my interest in the Bicentennial that was upcoming. I had a crash course in American History and 18th century lifestyle all at the same time. My wife and I both were deeply involved in Bicentennial events and reenactments throughout the decade.

Never got involved into treking and similar activities, mainly because I didn't know about them or they weren't available in the Boston area. I originally started shooting factory made flintlock, smooth and rifled. Now I build my own, a huge difference. Never had a desire to shoot percussion or those rifles with the short barrels.

I still have a lot of my Bicentennial gear that still fits.

I use a powder horn that I made in 1974 that is pretty large, I can shoot with it all day and not run out of powder. It has been damaged by moths and dropping and repaired, not the prettiest horn I have made but it's the one I keep and use.

When I go to the range I have a bag full of gear, not light at all. But I almost never use most of what's in there, maybe I should simplify. But it's all Fun.

[pathfinder]

I was just to a "Rendezvous" that had a pretty good shoot set up,Mostly line shooting with an informal Wood's-Walk. On the line shoot,EVERYONE loaded off the bench from their shooting boxes,both rifle and trade gun, I was the only one loading from the pouch. I too don't mind HOW anyone shoot's,as long as they are safe and having fun!

Like Stormrider,I too can grab my pouch and gun and would be good to go for a long while in the wood's. I have a bag set up for each gun,so picking which gun to take for a "walk" is the hard part. I have been very forunate that I've been able to work up load for my gun's using the same patch and lube combo,keeps the confusion to a minimum

[Candle Snuffer]

Traditional?

Well, the way I still see it;

The traditional muzzle loading firearm must be of side lock flint or cap ignition.  It must be made of wood & metal.  It must be
loaded from the pouch with the patch cut at the muzzle.  Real black powder and patched ball only (unless it's a smoothbore
and the owner prefers no patch - just wadding).  It shouldn't be a fancy firearm as those are mostly copies of museum pieces
that were hardly ever used by those who really made an impact on history like the common working man.  Powder horn of course
with the allowance of a priming horn.  Short starter ok.  Wood ramrod only.  Fixed rear sight with a notch, barleycorn or partridge
front sight...  To me this is traditonal, and I know all of us recognize it when we see it.

[daddywpb]

I started in the early '70's with a 45 cal percussion T/C Hawken. I shot the rifle for 15 years before I got a .54 T/C Renegade percussion.  I recently put a .58 GM barrel on the .54 Renegade. I still hunt and target shoot with both of these fine rifles. About eight years ago, my wife bought me a T/C Omega inline. It is stainless steel with a synthetic camo stock and scoped. It's definately not traditional, but I enjoy shooting it, and it is amazingly accurate with Powerbelt bullets and Pyrodex pellets. I have hog hunted with it also. About a year ago I bought my first flintlock - a T/C Renegade .54, which I had rebarreled to .58. I use only Goex and PRB in the percussion and flintlock guns. I love them all, and wouldn't give up any of them. I've introduced shooters at the range, who have never shot anything but inlines to the fun of traditional shooting. Hopefully, at least one of them will keep going with it. To each his own is my philosophy.

[chad1043]

My father hunted with modern (post 1930) shotguns and rifles, no BP. I'm just learning about this sport. I picked up a GPR percussion and have been slowly building up my kit. I want to shoot/hunt out of a bag and would like to get to a point where I am able to walk out the door with two bags and be able to hunt and survive, but right now I want to learn to shoot safely and accurately. As I learn I will be able to pass on my knowledge to my children.

[rickevans]

As much as I like "stuff", the idea that Pathfinder and others have mentioned about having a bag-to-go with each rifle or smooth bore gun is more and more the way I am headed. One of the reasons I started this "traditional" method is to go simpler, less complex and lighter.

[Kermit]

Whose tradition? Seriously. What country or part of the country? What time period? The older i get, the more liberal i am in accepting what other folks do. I'm pretty willing to exclude sabots,, pelleted propellants, and scopes--usually. Seems a lot of folks want to keep it to flint or percussion with a hammer that falls sidelock style and aft up to fore down. So then is a mule ear traditional? If a sideslapper is traditional, what about underhammers? Sure a long tradition there. Just visit a chunk gun shoot. Then there are the boys and girls who shoot bench guns. The big boys there are using sealed ignitions and scopes and such, but I think the NMLRA still wants rea  l black powder burned in them.

Like a lot of folks it seems, my first was a TC Renegade. Moved on through some other percussion guns, mostly single and double shotguns. Had a flint fowling piece built, and then got a neat little flint halfstock with interchangeable .32 and .45 barrels. Some revolvers and a Patriot and a .36 Seneca in there somewhere. Eventually I was down to flint only, with 6 of 'em now, IIRC. Oh, there are still a few cartridge guns, long and short about the place--which seldom see any action. Inertia keeps them with me.

I thought I was likely to never buy another percussion cap. Wrong. I've recently added THREE underhammers? Traditional? Sort of. One is a RB bench rifle with no false muzzle and with sealed ignition. Stock is curly maple, but it's stainless steel, action to muzzle. A very short tradition there, but surely a part of shooting at Friendship. Next is a chunk gun. Now THERE's a tradition. Read up on the game. This one's also underhammer, #11 caps, walnut stock, open iron sights, and--ta da--stainless front to back again. Third's another underhammer again, this time a 12 bore shotgun, proper steel and brass, but I'm using a hunk of curly myrtle for the stock. Not so traditional, I reckon, but I want it, so I'm gettin' it.

I truly love shooting flinters, and always shoot from the bag, powder in a horn, roundball only, patches cut at the muzzle, almost always spit lubed. Range box? Sure, in the truck, with stuff that's there for contingencies. I even "dress the part" most of the time. But I'm "chuffed as little tea cakes," as a Brit friend says, about the new areas of muzzleloading I'm exploring. Bench, chunk, and trap seem like good things to try as my hips and knees complain more loudly.

I used to keep all my gear "primitive," and strove to be as HC as my knowledge and budget allowed. Still have most of the stuff, but it's been thinned out a lot. No longer do I have a family at home that's going along. I can't quite give it up, but I'm looking to lighten that load in a variety of ways.

So, tradition? I guess I've got several of them going at once. Am I having fun? FerSher! And I'm less and less critical of someone else's game. Mellowing like fine wine, maybe. There are totally HC/PC walk-in things for those folks and there are wide open events complete with Winnebagos and Airstreams that I can neither afford nor desire. I'm just going where the wanderlust takes me, and keep on loading from the front and sending roundballs and shot downrange. I even hit what I'm pointing at a fair bit.

[Hanshi]

"Just" traditional?  Lock on the side, cap or flint, wood stock (maybe an argument for plastic stocks....maybe).

[Stormrider51]

My thanks to all of you who have replied.  My view of "traditional" is what our ancestors had during the period when black powder muzzleloaders were King.  My dad found an original Dickert halfstock at McBrides Gunshop here in Austin back in the 1950's.  He talked Jack McBride into letting him photograph it and trace its outline on a roll of butcher paper.  That's where it started.  Before long he built a rifling machine and started to rifle his own barrels.  My brothers still have copies of that Dickert rifle that dad built.  Later on he located a Fordney and a Haynes and reproduced them.  Most of his rifles were .45 cal and we took our fair share of deer with them.  In later years I watched the move to really large bores when a .50 was considered barely adequate for hunting.  Good thing the deer didn't know we were using too small a ball because none of the ones we shot with those tiny .440 cal balls ran away.  I have a friend who, along with his wife, have taken their deer every season for the past 30 or so years with a .40 cal.  None of those deer to my knowledge have ever contacted the ASPCA or PETA to complain either.  Could putting that ball where it needed to be have anything to do with it?  Along that same line, I've noticed a tendency to separate "match accuracy" from "hunting accuracy".  Apparently hunting demands a lesser degree of care in loading?  I was taught that any game animal deserves the very best and most humane shot I can deliver and that the time spent on the range developing loads paid off when deer season came around.  I still believe that to be true.  Is that attitude "traditional"?  I honestly don't know but it is a tradition I intend to pass down to my grandkids.

Storm