Going Traditional

[mark davidson]

First to Ron:  I think you know by the smiley face in my post that I was joking about the "boreing" issue of any shot. I get pumped any time I get to turn an arrow loose on live game. My implication was this: I do get more gratification from a really close encounter or from a really well disciplined and well made longer shot, but keep in mind....longer just means longer than 20 yards and still well within my comfort range and practiced range and confidence range. If I ever really find any aspect of the hunt to bore me, I will know it is time to look for something else to do.
   I too truly hate and despise to lose an animal. I also hate talking about it, and I think it serves no real purpose to discuss it on the blasted internet for all the nay-sayers to see and read. Suffice it to say this: I like any other dedicated bowhunter who hunts a lot and shoots at lots of deer, have lost some game. It is a regrettable and abhorrent part of bowhunting but is still an undeniable event that will at least possibly happen sooner or later. Honestly, between myself and my traditional hunting partners I have seen deer lost from poor 7 yard shots as well as poorly placed longer shots.  I will be the first to admit that the longer the shot the greater the chance of a poor hit. Still, plenty of our fraternity make poor shots at well under the 20 yard mark every season.
  Fletcher actually said the most honest and sensible thing I have seen on one of these forums in a while. He used the measurement of "90% confidence factor."  I could not agree more with his statement. Anybody who thinks every shot with a stick and string is 100% is dillusional or has not shot at many real animals in the woods. Bad things happen even with the best of intentions. I may tell myself that I am 100% sure I can make this or that shot. The honest truth is that I am really more like 90% sure but I assume the 10% risk when I turn the arrow loose and 100% of the responsibility if I screw it up or if something happens. Such is the nature of what we do.
   Ron, if you have truly not lost an animal since you were 20 years old, (I have no reason to doubt you), then once again my hat is off to you and I have once again found an example to strive for. I clearly cannot make such a claim. I will say that my problem shots have not been the result of too much distance! Beyond that I will not discuss it on the internet. If we had a good campfire and a stout cup of cowboy coffee we might exchange horror stories, but here is not the place.

[Fletcher]

Mark - I see that you are still a guest on TMA.

Why don't ya consider joinin up and we might see about that cup around the camfire???

Hey Beav - iffen he do - do I get credit???

No action for new members here in Montana, but sure is a lot Traditional type talk around the Rondy campfires here this season.

I have succeeded in getting about 6 guys to hang up the training wheels and go trad archery hunting!

[Longhunter]

Ron, if you have truly not lost an animal since you were 20 years old, (I have no reason to doubt you)

I didn't say that did I? :lol:

[Fletcher]

I said that.  It is true I have not lost a big game animal with a bow since then.  I forgot my first Moose with a rifle in Alaska.  I was under gunned and he jumped up and knocked me on my @$$ when I went up to him after the shot.

Lost him in the swamp.

Went to the City shortly after that and got a .338 Win Mag.

Since that day I have not lost a big game animal with gun or bow.

[Longhunter]

I said that. It is true I have not lost a big game animal with a bow since then. I forgot my first Moose with a rifle in Alaska. I was under gunned and he jumped up and knocked me on my @$$ when I went up to him after the shot.

Didn't have enough gun....saw it, right off....

The first moose that I shot in Canada in 79, I had plenty a gun. Shot him in the rear end as he was runnin straight away. The ball went full length and stopped just under the hide in the brisket. That was with my .62 Jaeger made for me by Jud Brennan. I had it loaded with either 175 or 200gr's (memories gettin dim) of 2FF and a patched 610 RB

[Fletcher]

Yessirr I do believe that a cannonball in the south end of of north bound moose jest might weight him down a mite!

[mark davidson]

Ron, My apologies. I misread and got the right story with the wrong name.  Either way, it has been a nice discussion and educational as always.
   Now that Ron has recounted his moose story for all to see, :-) I cannot wait for the usual suspects on here to pipe in and accuse Ron of "magnumitis" like they normally do me. It is just that story and that mentorship that lead me to move up to .62 caliber and a good stout charge of 2F. I turned loose a PRB or two with 200 grains of 2F and found it to be a very encouraging experience. I backed off to 140 grains for white tail deer, but the confidence I get from having a .62 and knowing I can bump up to 200 grains is priceless.  FWIW, Yeah, I know, I know....that is too much powder....I can't make a magnum out of a MLer....I shoot too far....I got magnumitis....blah blah blah.... :-)  Thanks again to Ron for the story and for the encouragement.  My magnum .62 slapped several deer to the ground last season from about 8 yards to just over a hundred and I could not possibly be happier with a rifle or more confident in my set up.  Ron, You da man! :-)

[sse]

Shot him in the rear end as he was runnin straight away.

Texas heart shot...

[mark davidson]

We have drifted quite some distance from Vernon's original quiestion about archery. As much as I like to talk about MLers, especially the bigger ones :-), we might should get back on topic for Vernon and for the archery forum.

[Longhunter]

We have drifted quite some distance from Vernon's original quiestion about archery. As much as I like to talk about MLers, especially the bigger ones :-), we might should get back on topic for Vernon and for the archery forum.

I agree Mark, Vernon is probably saying, "My God, what have I started" :lol:

[mark davidson]

Ron,  I appreciate your honesty. My criteria or paradigm most all of the time is exactly the same as yours on your moose hunt. I want flat trajectory at least out just past 100 yards. It takes some powder to make that happen. I also want to smash a deer's shoulder bone or shoot through longways from either end if I do so choose. It takes some powder and a good heavy chunk of lead to do that. Those two simple criteria are why I like the semi- large .62 caliber and heavy charge of 2F.  Most of the time when I admitt that on here I get scolded for not getting closer for shooting too far for not being patient for not knowing where to shoot a deer for having magnumitis for being a poor tracker etc...etc.... Good flat trajectory and enough PRB to "git R Done" are what makes shooting a RIFLE interesting and effective to me.  Again, thanks for your open mindedness and for sharing your experience with relatively new folks in black powder.  In archery I also like a respectable working range on out to maybe 40 yards and a good heavy arrow with a good sharp head to "git R Done" with that too.  If anybody ever invents a Magnum Longbow, I will just have to have one! :-)

[Longhunter]

Mark, what weight bow do you shoot, just curious.

[mark davidson]

I shoot 62#@ 29" or at least that is what I have shot for about 19 years. last year I began shooting a Daala which is 55#@ 28" and somewhere around maybe 58 or 59# at my draw length.  I have shot arrows in the 650 grain total weight range but my preferrence is about a 535 grain totoal weight skinny carbon like the Beeman MFX classics. I killed the first four dozen or so deer I got using Zwickey two blade heads. Then I got creative and tried Woodsmans, Snuffers, and Thunderhead 125s.  The snuffers were terrible for me in terms of penetration. The Woodsmans killed OK but curled like elf shoes unless I clipped and recut the tips. The T'heads were not much better than the woodsmans so I am back shooting Zwickeys again. Anyway, that is more info than you asked for but I figure you will give me some critique or pointers or suggestions and I thought you ought to have the info.  FWIW I can shoot up to about 67# @29 before my form suffers badly and when I get below 55# my form gets bad from not being able to turn the string loose. Given one extreme or the other I shoot a little too heavy bow for me better than I do a little too light one. I have shot Black Widow recurve and longbow for almost twenty years before going with this newfangled Daala last year.  Holler back. :-)