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Author Topic: the "patent breech"  (Read 1171 times)

Offline RobD

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the "patent breech"
« on: May 24, 2015, 07:36:33 PM »
trying to better understand this beast as my .50 lyman trade rifle supposedly has one. all my other flinters have "normal" chambers and flash holes, but this dang lyman breech is different.  

lyman's cleaning regimen recommends ...

"The powder channel inside the breech plug is smaller than the bore
diameter and does not allow the cleaning jag to enter. Lyman recommends the
use of a .38 cal. cleaning brush and/or a slotted tip cleaning rod to reach into
this area.cleaning regimen recommends."


what's the pros (if any) and cons about the patent breech?  

anyone have a diagram or pic of the lyman (investarms) patent breech?

much obliged, amigos.

Offline cyotewa

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Re: the "patent breech"
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2015, 11:20:50 PM »
You need a 'Breech Brush' best price is on ebay. It will get inside the smaller diameter and the wires will form fit to it and keep it clean.
Rob

Offline RobD

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Re: the "patent breech"
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2015, 06:51:17 AM »
i think these 'patent breech' things are a huge PITA for cleaning ... are the functionally that better than a traditional breech plug?

would like to know what kinda patent breech is on the lyman trade.


Offline Semisane

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Re: the "patent breech"
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2015, 10:48:04 AM »
Lyman, Green Mountain, and Thompson Center barrels all have chambered breeches as shown in the illustration.

Having two Lymans and five TCs with Green Mountain barrels myself, I have lots of experience with chambered breeches. The cleaning fix is quite simple.

Get a 1/4" x 36" hardwood dowel from your local hardware store. Round one end a bit and cut a slot in it with a hacksaw. Use a small damp patch in the slot to clean the chamber. Put it in and withdraw it with a twisting motion. The patch won't come off, at least it hasn't happened to me in hundreds of cleanings.

Bad things happen for a reason. Sometimes that reason is you did something stupid.

Offline Hanshi

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Re: the "patent breech"
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2015, 02:32:15 PM »
I have to admit that I've never had any problems with patent breeches in any of the guns I've owned; and that's more that a few.  Still own a treasured percussion .54 with a patent breech.  Despite that, I much prefer traditional flat breeches and every gun I've ever had built had flat breeches.
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline RobD

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Re: the "patent breech"
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2015, 02:52:56 PM »
what's the 'benefit' of a patent breech?  'inline' ignition from the flash hole instead of at 90 degrees?

Offline Semisane

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Re: the "patent breech"
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2015, 03:02:12 PM »
The original design "back in the day" was to improve (speed up) ignition by having a blast of concentrated flame from the chamber ignite the main charge. It does that to some extent. But these days the primary reason Lyman, TC, Green Mountain and others use it is for ease of mass production manufacturing.
Bad things happen for a reason. Sometimes that reason is you did something stupid.

Offline Captchee

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Re: the "patent breech"
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2015, 10:34:59 AM »
Many years ago we had a sticky on this subject  . Must have been lost in that  big clean up  we had .
 I still have some of the photos  that I did concerning this so ill try to  do a condensed explanation.
 
The original patent and improved breech plug designs art really anything close to what  pedersoli or TC uses . Bothe the design of Nock and Manton had small flue’s that lead to an Antechamber . While these are later drawing , you can get the idea .


 What pedersoli uses is  a modification on the design  in that they did away with the Flue and basically   made the Antechamber  a dog leg . Here is a drawing of the pedersoli  plug


 Now as to they why of it .
Well as others have said , it is supposed to give a increase in  ignition speed .
However  remember that  the “ORIGNINAL “designs came about  during a time when  every well known maker was trying to  come up with anything they could which  they could claim  would increase the speed  and reliability of the flintlock ignition .
It also provides for a stronger breeching as   it allows for far more threads then a standard type breech

 They Antechamber also ,  acted like a booster to the main charge .  To understand that , we have to  realize what happens  during the micro second of  the powder burn   and the resulting pressure wave  that started as the first grain  of powder ignites.
 In doing so we then understand that the Antechamber provides a much smaller area  of burn .  Directs that initial pressure and heat wave forward   into the rear of the main charge .
 The resulting back pressure “concerning a flintlock application “ then makes the small flue’s   pretty much self cleaning  . They end up acting much like a nozzle on a hose   and produces a very strong jet out the flash hole . So strong  in fact that its not uncommon to see  originals  that have pans  showing signs of  gas cutting . Some later makers even went to the point of making a small notch   in the outside edge of the pan . These often also had a corresponding tab  on bottom of  the frizzen .

 Now lets jump forwards in time , where this breech design was  applied to the cap lock .
 When this was done , for the most part the flue’s were done away with . You also see the advent of the Improved breech  which  incorporates the bolster    as part of the breech . Thus producing a stronger  design when compared to the earlier drum type  bolster .
 The problem however is that  because of this larger Antechamber  you don’t get as much nozzle effect   which results in a build up of carbonized fouling  throughout the entire  system . If this isn’t  cleaned  regularly the fouling will build  tell it reaches a point where  the resulting back pressure  is sufficient to  maintain only a small channel  through the hard carbonized fouling .

 Now it would seem this would be  ok as  then  we would have a natural Flue as was designed for the flintlock application .   Well  really you don’t  as in some areas there will be pockets  of larger air space  behind the liner or at the corner of the  90 deg turn. This  manifests itself  as un reliable ignition  in both the flintlock and cap lock applications  . Less so for the cap lock do to the higher  pressure and directed fire and heat  from the cap .

  As I alluded  ,  this was an early topic here . I actually  did some cut a ways of  different breech plugs  and  photos of the pedersoli breech  , the fix for that breech if it should become troublesome .

So first is  a photo of a pedersoli breech plug from one of their flintlock rifles .  This is what I often see when someone brings me one of their rifles  that is having ignition issues
Note that  we can see inside the Antechamber and that it appears to be  open   even though we do see  fouling . Also , we can clearly see that this plug was not sealing and fouling was working its way down the threads


 Now I don’t seem to have the photos of the liner  that went with this plug  or the corresponding photos of  a drum breech  from a rifle that suffered from the same  issues . But here is a photo of the face of the breech .  Note the fouling buildup and resulting small hole  I spoke of .

 This is  how big the Antechamber should be , as produced by pedersoli





 Now the Fix  if you begin to have issues . Well as the others have said . Start by keeping it clean . Use the dowel  or get a  small 22 cal brush  that you can use to scrub out this chamber  during cleaning . Just twist it as you go into the chamber and keep twisting as you remove it .
 If you end up reaching the point where  you have to have the breech pulled ,  drill out the  chamber alittle .
 I normally ream them out to .250  and as of yet not had on returned for the same issue.

Offline RobD

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Re: the "patent breech"
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2015, 05:49:59 AM »
good input folks, much obliged.

charles, your detailed info is just Stellar!  thank you for sharing and schooling me!  Excellent!

Offline twisted_1in66

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Re: the "patent breech"
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2015, 03:37:29 PM »
I might add that one of my rifles, aTraditions Pennsylvania Longrifle, has a patent breech.  I bought it in about 2002 and used it a LOT for about 3-4 years before I bought my much more historically correct (was doing a LOT of reenactments) Early Lancaster rifle.  During that time I never used a smaller chamber brush to clean it.  At the recommendation of a gun builder I know, instead I put some MAP down the gun barrel (enough to put a couple of inches in the bottom of the barrel) AFTER removing the lock and plugging the barrel with a toothpick.  I then let it soak at the bottom of the barrel while I cleaned my lock.  After cleaning the lock, I then used a wet (MAP again) patch and started moving it down the barrel until I could feel some compression resistance.  At that point I pointed the flash hole away from anything within about 10 feet that might get stained, pulled out the toothpick and rammed the rod down quickly to the bottom of the breech.

This shot a jet stream of ugly dirty solvent and dissolved fouling out about 6 feet or more and basically pressure-cleaned the patent breech.  In all the time I used it, I never had a problem with it and I still have the rifle today although it really doesn't get much use anymore.  You really have to be careful to point the touch hole away from anything that can get stained though because this method really shoots out a jet-stream and anything it hits will be permanently stained...like a tent for instance.
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Twisted_1in66

Offline RobD

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Re: the "patent breech"
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2015, 04:06:04 PM »
twisted, that's what i had been doing with a lyman trade, just letting break free clp fill the breech with a plugged touch hole, sit for awhile, then jet it out with a patched jag.  

what's "MAP"?

Offline twisted_1in66

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Re: the "patent breech"
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2015, 05:14:45 PM »
MAP is equal parts of [size=150]M[/size]urphy's Oil Soap, 91% Rubbing [size=150]A[/size]lcohol, and Hydrogen [size=150]P[/size]eroxide.  It's a great cleaner.   Hydrogen Peroxide by itself will cause rust, but when combined with the Murphy's Oil Soap and the alcohol, it doesn't.   Cleans noticeably better than water and as it evaporates it leaves a little bit of the oil soap behind to protect the parts against rust.  If you don't get all the water out when using water to clean your gun, you can get some rust surprisingly quickly.  

Plus for those historically correct folks, Murphy's Oil Soap is the same as the "soft soap" that was found back then and alcohol and peroxide were also available in towns.  I mix 16 ounces of each into a 48 oz container, shake it well and then pour the mixture into about a 20 oz bottle.  I cork that bottle and put it for my shooting box along with my gun oil, tools, and cleaning patches.  That way I can pull the entire thing out to clean my gun at a reenactment or living history event and not worry about using and showing 21st century items. I also have some tow and will sometimes use that instead of the patches for the initial cleaning.
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Twisted_1in66

Offline RobD

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Re: the "patent breech"
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2015, 05:38:52 PM »
i've used dutch's moose milk with good results ...

1  part Ballistol
1  part Lestoil or Pinesol
2  parts hydrogen peroxide
20 parts tap water

but i'm gonna give the far more period-correct MAP a try, too - thanx fer sharing!

Offline Dewey

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Re: the "patent breech"
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2015, 08:38:53 PM »
Although hydrogen peroxide was first made in the lab around 1818, the first record of commercial production of hydrogen peroxide appeared in the 1865 to 1875 period. The first commercial production in the United States was by the Oakland Chemical Company, Brooklyn, New York, in 1881. It required electrolysis to produce one of the precursor molecules.

 The first commercial production of Isopropanol (IPA, or 2-propanol) by the addition of water to propene was done in 1930 by Standard Oil of New Jersey (USA). This was also the first example of the manufacture of a petrochemical from a refinery product.

So neither H2O2 nor IPA are "period correct" (at least not our period) !!!

Ethanol was available, for sure, but who would want to waste drinking alcohol on their gun, LOL !!!

"Period correct" is hot water and maybe some soap (see Roberts).
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 08:56:18 PM by Dewey »
- Dewey

Member #650

Offline RobD

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Re: the "patent breech"
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2015, 08:54:53 PM »
well burst our bubble, dewey!  :laffing

the water part might also be suspect these dayze as well.  :lol