Alloying pure lead for bhn 10/11 ???

[j-houser]

Thanks for the information. I hope my search for knowledge doesnt offend anyone. As a perfectionist in the area of marksmanship and refining the individual gun, I also agree with Stormrider,s approach to solving the problem. However, to solve a specific problems, knowledge alone isn't enough. Its UNDERSTANDING  the knowledge allows us to manipulate the elements of the problem. Also, my specific goal is for consistent clean humane shots on deer out  to 125 yards with a .60 cal. jaeger.

With that in mind, can you help me out with the advantage or disadvantages in the moose mild and dry patch lube. How do you get a even coating of the dry patch lube. Maybe I could go back to pure lead if I had another mold made for .585 instead of the .590/.015 patch. This may allow the patch to fill the rifling up with out worrying about pressure deforming a round ball any while loading. I understand that each person has their preferences, usually based on experience.  

Previously I used water soluble oil for patches but had a 3 week old charge that was weak when fired. Lucky for the deer that it was only at 20 yards instead of 75. I have some pure mink oil that supposedly will help but I havent got to try yet???. I have been swabbing the bore between shots with a black powder solvent . Not sure what the plus or minus is on this
I am can not afford to be thin skinned with problem solving, so any perspective is much appreciated.


                   OPINIONS
For U. S. A.  - God, Country and USMC

For Hunting - Black Powder, and Saint Hubert

[Bison Horn]

I might be stepping on toes. There is a place, Rotometals, they sell a number of different alloys.
They are on the pricey side. I have not ordered any thing from them, as of yet. I have a supply, at
this time.

LeeRoy

Rotometals is an ok outfit from the dealings I've had with them. Imagine 60# in a USPS box, had to carry it out from the PO for the lady. lol

[Stormrider51]

Dutch Schoultz spent many years exploring the potential accuracy of the muzzleloading rifle.  He is, I believe, in his 80's now.  He offers a package of very useful information at  Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System.  It only costs $19.95 and will be one of the best investments you ever make.  Respect for Dutch is why many of us refer to his "dry patch system" but we don't explain what it is.  Contact him.  He's a great guy.

Concerning deforming the ball on loading.  The important thing isn't to avoid deforming the ball.  It's deforming it the same amount each time.  Consider this, I can shoot a round ball or a Minie in an appropriate rifle and get equally good accuracy.  The ball is round but the face of the Minie is almost flat.  So while shape of the bullet matters in terms of ballistic coefficient, etc each bullet of that shape will perform like another of that shape.  So if I deform round balls the same amount in loading each time I'll get the same performance.  Just to keep things interesting, the ball will be deformed again when the powder charge kicks it in the backside and inertia + friction resists it moving.  How much?  Not much but the ball does get shorter and fatter.  

So the trick is to deform the nose of the ball the same amount each time.  An overly tight patch/ball combo that requires you to drive it down the bore using the ramrod like a piston is actually okay provided you can whack it the same number of times with the same amount of force for each shot.  Slug gun shooters do it all the time.  Blackpowder Slug Guns – Precision Paper Punching Machinery
What works better for us is a PRB combo that is tight but not so tight that we have to resort to brute strength to get it seated on the powder.  The face of the ramrod should never leave the face of the ball.  That includes when it is seated.  Never bounce the ramrod off the ball.

Good luck and welcome to a hobby that has kept me fascinated for about 50 years!
Storm

[sse]

Never bounce the ramrod off the ball.

I know guys that do that, doesn't work for me, though.

[j-houser]

Thanks Stormrider for all your insight. And also, all the other TMA members that have helped me out with knowledge, experience and fore teaching me and making me re think my perspective of muzzleloading. I also hope that I am not stepping on any ones toes with the following perspective. Its just my opinion based on some knowledge and some experience.   You don’t have to agree, Its O.K.  just think about it.

 Will probably order Duches's package or contact him about this dry lube. I fully agree with uniform consistency from one load to the next. In my quest to tame this current finicky rifle, I have went somewhat over board. I use a circle template to file the sprue round.  (Thought that  tumbling balls in a tumbler would be good but not sure how many thousandths variation I would get). My starter and ramrod are both ground to match the radius of the .60 cal. ball. I do have to use two blows on the starter but push until the ball stops on a level charge of powder. The bbl is slightly choke bored for the first 2 inches but fairly easy on down.   My thought is that the harder lead will have less variables when confronted with the human inability to load the exact same each time and its also part of my current accuracy load.  However, I am not ruling out going back to pure lead.

I have been in numerous enjoyable debates about ballistic coefficient of projectiles. It makes for good conversation due to its many variables. In my attempt to understand this very complex set of variables, I perceive that the round ball is the least ballistic coefficient projectile. This is partially due to it having the minimum weight for the most atmospheric resistance  (example, a 50 cal. round ball at 170 gr. has about the same air resistance as an extremely stable 50 cal. BMG has at 750 gr.). Also, a longer  bullet is usually more stable than a shorter bullet in flight. This is some what due to the the tip of the bullet  being more able to stay  fixed center of the rotation. Since the round ball is shorter in length it is more apt to yaw off of the original center of rotation. The physics of the round ball has had some effect on why the conical projectile became very popular for long range shooting during and after the civil war. My perspective with my  limited knowledge of ballistics is that IF a round ball starts to yaw off of its original center of rotation, any change of the air flowing over the ball that is not at its original sphere (primarily on the outer edge of rotation) will be effected to some degree by the same physics as a knuckle ball or a spit ball. Although the ball is spinning, the  unbalance of air pressure over the ball will push the ball off of its course to some degree and probably increase the yaw even more. This unbalance of pressure compounds the further the ball  goes down range.  This is one of the reasons that  I perceive that the current rifle I am working with, originally shot a one inch group at 30 yards and went out to 8 inches at 75yards. I understand that this is not the only variable effecting this 8 inch group. This jeager is not the only muzzleloader I have had the problem of minute of angle  compounding unexceptionably. However, with you'll help, I can now depend on a 6 inch group at 125 yards with my old eyes and the help of a bunch of sand bags. Maybe even better when I go to the range and try some of the perspectives from TMA.

I hope I havent offended anyone. Having sensitive toes can get in the way of knowledge and understanding. Your perspective is welcome.


OPINIONS
Fore U.S.A. - God, Country and USMC

Fore Hunting - Black Powder and Saint Hubert

[Stormrider51]

My toes are pretty much step-proof.  :-)  This hobby would be boring if there was one formula that works for every firearm and every shooter.  The only rule I've ever found to apply across the board is "consistency", doing everything the same every time.  Beyond that it's a matter of discovering what a given gun likes and performs best with.  And if you ever think you have learned it all, try smoothbores.  I spent most of my life ignoring them as uninteresting and inaccurate.  When I recently started working with them I've discovered that I had to learn all over again.

Storm

[sse]

I perceive that the round ball is the least ballistic coefficient projectile

Same here, yet the ballistics are subject to reliable prediction.  Add to that traditional methods of ignition and what we have here is one heck of a good time...

[Geezer in NH]

If your Post office cannot handle the weight limits that the PO allows make a formal complaint. I hate when .gov complains of their own specs.

Want the money and benefits do the job NO excuses allowed.

Bitter yep annoyed yep, When they said I could not ship guns as a dealer more than one postmaster got remedial training, some got let go.

[Geezer in NH]

You have the best RB metal Pure lead needs nothing else