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Author Topic: Why are modern barrels so overbuilt?  (Read 1892 times)

Offline JD45

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Why are modern barrels so overbuilt?
« on: September 23, 2008, 12:01:33 AM »
They are too big and heavy. I hunt with a T/C Renagade and the barrel has way to much meat in it in my opinion.

I've read a little about appalachian gun makers and their history. Most of the so-called "hog rifles" were around .40 cal and had long barrels. But they were slim.

Other than paying a fortune for a custom rifle, how can someone get a slim, shorter(hawken length) barrel caplock in .45 or .50 cal? Will you have to find a barrel and build it yourself?

Offline oomcurt

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« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2008, 12:20:48 AM »
Well....for what it is worth...I guess a lot depends on where you were back then. I have heard that some of those rifles used in the Rocky Mtn's fur trade weighed almost 15 pounds. I have a friend that has an original rifle from the civil war...union side...lemme tell ya...that thing IS heavy!

Just my two cents....
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Interest: Rocky Mt'n Fur Trade
March 1 2008

Offline Uncle Russ

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« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2008, 12:56:44 AM »
JD45, Welcome to the forum. :evil:

I  have several other .50 caliber rifles and I don't have any thing near that kind of problem with that small of a caliber.

I guess what I'm saying is "be very careful what you wish for".

You might want to try a few of those slim, slender, sleek looking rifles before you invest any big money...they just might give you a whole new perspective on that big Renegade.
(If you have the Renegade in .50, with a full 1" barrel, there are a lot of people out there who would like to own that gun....that 1" barrel is very sought after many shooters.)

Anyway, Welcome to the forum.
I'm sure you will find a lot to like here.

Respectfully, Uncle Russ...
It's the many things we don't do that totally sets us apart.
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Offline Christiaan

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« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2008, 03:00:53 AM »
Firstly, the production rifles have one profile to fit a .54 cal.  All they then do is put smaller hole for the smaller calibers.

Secondly, because of litigation madness they even make the .54 too big just to be on the safe and too heavy side.

Thats what I understand from the manufacturers.
Trust God and keep your powder dry.

Offline vermontfreedom

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« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2008, 01:17:55 PM »
Aside from a custom barrel - I can't help on the where to get a slimmer barrel, but I have to say I think the reason for the thickness of factory barrels is two-fold:

safety: I would have no qualms about putting a double-charge in a factory barrel (say a Lyman trade rifle or great plains) on a flintlock. that kind of manufacturing warrants against such unfortunate consequences

ease of production: make one barrel profile and just drill out the bore to the desired caliber

I will say this, nothing no one here doesn't know already - weight generally equals accuracy, all else being equal. Heavy rifle, less recoil, more accurate/precise. just the way it is.
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Offline Minnesota Mike

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« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2008, 03:09:09 PM »
Check to see what Green Mountain barrels may be available in what you're looking for.

But as was stated earlier - there is a reason for heavier barrels. Usually the heavier the barrel, the more steady you hold it on target.

On the other hand, depends on how long you're dragging it thru the woods as well.

Get the weapon the match the need.

r/
MM
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Expiration Date Oct 2010.

Offline riverrat

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« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2008, 07:10:03 PM »
I had the opportunity to shoulder a orgional Dickert longrifle and immediately what came to my mind was how heavy that gun was.
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Offline Gambia

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« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2008, 02:29:07 PM »
I think the main consideration is how the rifle fits you I have had very light rifles that I did not like at all and heavy rifles over 9lbs that were well balanced and I liked.In my opinion fit and balance are everything.Having said that nowdays because of age and related problems anything over 8lbs is not comfortable. As Russ said that T.C. maybe better than you think.

Offline Andy Anderson

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« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2008, 10:21:46 PM »
From the original longrifles that I have shouldered, They were much more muzzle heavy than todays guns. i don't know why---maybe for safety or just style?

Andy

Offline JD45

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« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2008, 12:28:17 AM »
Let me clarify my post a bit.

Everyone is correct that lots of rifles back then had long barrels(very long) and were muzzle heavy. Anything that long is going to be muzzle heavy, and also just plain-out heavy.

But many of those barrels were not thick. They did not measure one-inch O.D. at the muzzle. They were just long.

Take a slim barrel and cut it to 26" and you could have a easy carrying rifle.

Offline Captchee

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« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2008, 10:47:12 AM »
well a couple things here .
 a long barrel does not make a rifle muzzle heavy . if built correctly it will balance correctly .
 Even a rifle that’s in the 10 -15 lb range , when built correctly  and balanced well , is a joy to shoot . While they are heavy , they do not become cumbersome .
 there also is a reason for building a rifle that  is balanced farther forward.. It hangs much steadier on the target then a rifle balance back . But that’s for another discussion .

 Originally barrels were  made of iron . Better barrels were also  very soft .
I have read  where Hacker Martian” granted still a 20 century smith “ would  when making a barrel , make it so soft that the  flats could  be drawn with a knife blade . Now that’s pretty soft .
 American rifleman  used to do a whole section on muzzleloading  in it printing back in the 1930-40’s .
  In many of those articles , especially when speaking of target rifles    folks would use large  barrels bored for a small caliber . There are many references also  referring to softer barrels being most desirable  .
 A couple weekends ago I actually found an original  long distance rifle  that was probably built in the lat 1890- early 1900  time frame.  It was in very good condition  and if I could have afforded the asking price which was very reasonable , I would have snapped it up .
 The rifle was bored to 40 cal  but the barrel was 1 3/4 across the  flats .
 I bet the rifle weighed in at around 15lbs give or take . But the balance was perfect. When I sighted  down the barrel on a target  the sights were rock solid.
 What a wonderful piece ..

 If we move back in our time line  where iron barrels become the norm . IE  the era of the plains rifle .  We notice that these barrels are very heavy .
 Once of the reasons is  IMO that this was a mind set of the time . Things were built strong , and robust . They were built to last  a lifetime  with the intent of  items being capable of being refurbished .  Barrels produced in calibers 50 and greater are commonly found  with measurements greater then 1 inch across the flat . they needed to be this way to hold the charges they were using . Not to mention the amount of shooting that many of these rifle were  doing
 Further back  where rifles were built lighter and IMO more graceful  we find barrels  that are also very large across the  flats  when it comes to larger calibers .  Remember that back then a 50 was a large caliber and as  that caliber grew , so did the  barrel thickness .
 This holds true  especially for muskets   where the breach section  is often very large  but only for a leaght , then its thinned down . The reason for this is  based on the characteristics of BP itself .
 This  very thick area is the location where the pressure spike of ignition takes place . It takes the most beating . Forward of that , the peak pressure within  the barrel is actually dropping  . As such the  barrels needed to be thick to  withstand the charges  used in those weapons .  
 So way are the barrels in reproductions , today so thick ?
 Well one   has to understand that even though modern steals are used  over iron , those rifles are still made with  an eye to being along the lines of  examples of the day . Even if most times  very loosely.
Basically because its whats expected  .
With the modern designs , we see the barrels getting smaller , thinner . But really IMO this is because , again , its whats to be expected . The guns are designed and built to be more like a center fire  in  shape , feel  and heft .


 Another reason for this also could be said that because the weapon is a muzzleloading weapon . The manufacture  has no way of knowing just how  the rifle will be used . Just how much powder will be dumped down the barrel . Will it be cleaned and taken care of . Will the barrel hold if short started  or an obstruction accurse. As such they  try to look at the worst end to some existent. But even then we still see barrels fail  .

 But then also , depending on the rifle your looking at as a compression, the barrels today can actualy be much smaller . But again that depends on what your looking at as a compression   as well as what calibers your comparing it to   .
 There is no doubt that  barrels could become even smaller  do to modern technologies concerning steels
 But  I think  most folks just associate  traditional muzzleloaders  having thick barrels . Its whats  expected  and thus whats provided .

 In closing , I would like to say this .
We should keep in mind that BP can  produce VERY high pressures  when all the variables align. Because of the nature of how our rifles are designed  and the way we load , the chances of that happening can be seen to be greater  then  those same things happening with say a cartridge rifle  .
 That  should always be taken into account  in the manufacturing of barrels   for mussleloading use

Offline FG1

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« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2008, 11:29:47 AM »
This is an original genuine Southern rifle Tenn. style. I dont know true origins and it has JG on top flat and may be a J Gross rifle of the Bean clan. It has a swamped barrel of around 1-3/16" at breach and a touch over 1" at muzzle. It was a .38 cal until I had it rebored and rifled to .46 where it cleaned up good by Ron paris back in the 80's. Its about 11 pounds but 'hangs' quite well except being a short L.O.P. 12.5" .
Pbox release needs some attention as you can see  :lol:




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Offline vermontfreedom

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« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2008, 09:27:15 PM »
I've also heard that American gunmakers aren't required to proof barrels like Europeans, so the added barrel thickness is just for "insurance".

A quick look through my own gun cabinet confirms this: a 20-gauge Remington 870 about 30-40 years old has a modestly thick barrel. [I note this gun has machined parts rather than stamped as in more modern guns - not sure that's important]. Two Winchester Rangers (one 20, one 12-gauge) both have very heavy/thick barrels. A 2002 Benelli SBE (Italian) has a rather thin barrel - but it's the only one of the 4 that has proof marks (the others show "NP", which I'm assuming means "not proofed").

My wife's Lyman Trade Rifle in .50 has a 28-inch barrel. It weighs 8 pound 12 ounces, 2 ounces more than my .54-cal that has a 44-inch Rice barrel (C profile, if I remember correctly).
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