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Author Topic: fire pistons  (Read 1366 times)

Offline burch

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fire pistons
« on: February 22, 2009, 11:29:45 AM »
Is it hard to make a fire piston ?   I have one of those factory made flint strikers that isn`t worth a nickle and i`ve already broken a piece off of it,  i`d like something more traditional.  Also what do you folks use for flint and where could I get some ?
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Offline Indiana

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« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2009, 11:32:36 AM »
I'd look into having one of the smiths here forge you up a steel striker.  Get a good one and it should last a lifetime, I would think.  As for flint... I just walk along the road and pick mine up, but places like Track of the Wolf and JSTownsend have flint shards for striking, if that is what you are looning for.
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Offline northwoodsdave

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« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2009, 01:07:13 PM »
If you are good at workworking a fire piston would be a pretty simple project  It's basically a tube with a bottom and  a close fitting piston that slides inside of it.  In a tiny space in the bottom is where your char goes.

The whole thing works on the science that a sudden rapid compression of air is accompanied with a rapid (and extreme) rise in temperature.  One stroke of the piston will heat the char to ignition.  You then dump the hot char into your tinder and you have almost instant fire.

Actually, I think a striker and flint is more 'traditional' than a fire piston. A peice of iron or steel and a hunk of flint would be much easier to obtain than one of these.

But the pistons certainly are fun!

Hope that helps

Dave
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Offline burch

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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2009, 01:13:48 PM »
I tend to agree. I just used the back of my knife.
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Offline Three Hawks

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« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2009, 10:18:34 PM »
Fire making with flint and steel is dead easy.  Almost all the catalog outlets sell good quality kits with everything needed along with clear instructions for not much money.    If memory serves there are several threads here on the subject as well.   Nearly any hard rock will give sparks with a good steel.  I've used, agate, quartz, basalt, as well as the much commoner flint and chert.  I live near Puget Sound, and have found hundreds of beach pebbles that when broken have sharp enough edges to strike good sparks.  Most rivers will yeild good stones as well.  Just crack one  into bits with another and give the shards a try.

Fire steels can be made, found, or bought.   Files don't work all that well, they're too hard.   You can break one into smaller pieces, and anneal.  Heat a piece red hot then drop it into a container of wood ash.  This insulates the steel allowing it to cool slowly and soften.   By cooling slowly, I mean overnight at least.  Then file or grind off the teeth on the narrow edge, rounding it slightly at the same time.   Testing with a sharp, hard bit of stone will tell if it's a firesteel or scrap.  They mostly end up being scrap.  Mostly.

I suggest you buy one at a rendezvous.  Whoever you buy from should be happy to show you how to use it.  Many vendors sell good kits cheap.

I strongly suggest you purchase a Dixie Gun Works catalog as it is one of the best text books on primitive living available.  It's also a dang good source of needful things including firesteels and strike-a -light kits.

Then buy the Books of Buckskinning series.  VERY GOOD stuff there.  Most, if not all of your questions are already answered in them.   Buy as needed.  Numbers II and VIII are out of print but still easily available.   The eight books all cost on average, $20 each.  I began in the early 80's and completed my set in Feb of this year.  

The fire piston is SE Asian in origin.  A cute toy, but certainly not relevant to anything North American or European.

The backs of knives are almost universally useless as firesteels.

Three Hawks
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Offline woodman

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« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2009, 09:50:48 AM »
I have a firesteel made from a file and it works great. A file is very high carbon and strikes very well..
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Offline Loyalist Dave

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« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2009, 11:47:21 AM »
Quote
i`d like something more traditional

Well the fire piston isn't actually "traditional" for North America.  Bow & Spindle, and flint & steel.  Strikers aren't the easiest of implements to make.  They have to be correct to carbon content, and the right hardness.  Some folks try to make up for less than proper carbon content by upping the hardness, and end up with a brittle tool that brakes when it hits a stone or is dropped on the pavement.

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Offline Three Hawks

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« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2009, 08:01:22 PM »
Quote from: "Loyalist Dave"
Quote
i`d like something more traditional

Well the fire piston isn't actually "traditional" for North America.  Bow & Spindle, and flint & steel.  Strikers aren't the easiest of implements to make.  They have to be correct to carbon content, and the right hardness.  Some folks try to make up for less than proper carbon content by upping the hardness, and end up with a brittle tool that breaks when it hits a stone or is dropped on the pavement.

LD

The firebow and fire drill are traditional for pre-contact America; North, Central and South.  

Us yurpeens've mostly used steel and chunks of rock since pre viking times.  Another traditional  method is a fire glass, what your people call a lens, I use that more than anything if the Sun's out.  

 That said, it's a handy skill to know, along with the other fortylebenteen dozen methods.  You know, matches, bic lighters, steel wool and flashlight batteries,  magnesium/striker blocks, Zippos, all the above assisted with diesel, kerosene,  gasoline, denatured alcohol,  ad infinitum  

A couple of years ago I watched a kid start a fire with a chunk of ice.  He shaped it  into a lens then focused sunlight on a piece of dry charcoal out of a fire pit.  It didn't take him five minutes.  I  wanted to slap the little smarty pants.  I really hate being shown up by some ten year old smart aleck.  

Another one I wanted to slap silly was a seven or eight year old girl who partly filled a mesh onion sack with rocks to anchor an inflatable boat in a stiff breeze, fishing for rainbows in Jameson Lake in E. Wash.  The little snot limited in half an hour.  (I hope she wound up with six or seven rotten kids and a lazy husband.)

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Offline tg

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« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2009, 05:25:04 PM »
I like to just sit around and wait for a lightning strike, that is about as primitive as you can get.

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« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2009, 06:01:12 PM »
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Offline Loyalist Dave

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« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2009, 09:42:04 PM »
Volcanic eruption?  HEY IT COULD HAPPEN!

LD
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Offline Three Hawks

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« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2009, 10:56:54 PM »
Quote from: "Loyalist Dave"
Volcanic eruption?  HEY IT COULD HAPPEN!

LD

Ummmm.........Dave?    Put the bottle down now, and go to bed.

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Offline Mike Ameling

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« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2009, 11:33:09 AM »
Some interesting information presented above.  But I would have to disagree with some of it.  Just my opinions.

The Fire Piston first showed up in written records in the 14 and 1500's in Europe - as a "scientific curiousity".  The archeological evidence down in SE Asia only supports the fire piston in use there for just a couple hundred years - and only after it was known in Europe.  Ditto down in South and Central America.

An old file actually will work great as a flint striker.  Many modern files will not.  So many of them are now made from soft iron (with low carbon content) and then case-hardened on the outside.  So only the teeth and a small fraction of an inch of the outside of the file has enough carbon content in it to work as a flint strikers.

The simplest make-it-yourself striker is from an old file.  Clamp your file in a vice with around 3 inches sticking up.  Drape a shop rag over it, then smack that file on the side with a large hammer - to break/snap off that part sticking above the vice.  The rag helps control any "shrapnel", and to help you find that chunk back after it flies across your shop and under a workbench.  Now carefully grind off the teeth along the narrow edge - making sure you cool the file often.  If it is getting too hot to hold in your fingers, then cool it.  Or if you see any blue color developing in the file.  Cool it.  Also grind the teeth back a bit along the side of that narrow edge a bit, sort of a bevel.  And grind off any sharp edges where you snapped it off.  Those file teeth get in your way when trying to strike sparks.  Plus they chew up the sharp edge on your flint real fast.  You will be amazed at how well a file will work as a flint striker.  But you will have to use that "pinch" grip to hold it.

What you are doing when you strike sparks is using a SHARP edge on your flint or piece of stone to chip/dig out little bits of steel from the striking surface of your fire steel.  The energy you put in to chipping/digging out those little bits of steel (plus the breaking of some molecular bonds and some chemical reactions) heats up those little bits of steel hot enough that the carbon in them burns.  Those are the twinkling sparks you see - the carbon burning.

You can use most any stone to strike sparks.  The key point is getting a thin SHARP edge on that stone.  Chirt, agate, quartz, granit, even slate will work.  But the sharp edges you create just wear away lots faster than with flint.  With flint you can get better SHARP edges, and they will hold up longer in use.

So you need high carbon steel to begin with.  And then it works best when it is heat-treated as hard as you can get it.  If your striker is heat-treated too soft, your flint will dig in too much - sort of "grab" the steel.  And the bits that it chips out will be too big to get hot enough to burn.  The back of a knife blade is generally not hard enough to work well as a flint striker - too soft.  

So your striker needs to be heat-treated just about as hard as you can get it to work best as a flint striker.  But that does then make it much more brittle and subject to cracking/breaking.  So you have to do some other things to cut down on that "brittleness" a bit.  Things like that differential quench - where you quench just the striking surface to get it as hard as you can, while leaving the back/handle part softer.  Or heat-treating your striker hard, and then "tempering" it a bit - selectively heating it back up to soften it a bit and make it less brittle.  

The best tip I ever heard about heat-treating strikers came from a knife maker.  He said to ... thermal cycle ... your striker before the final quench.  After forging, you heat it up to that point where a magnet will no longer stick to the steel, then pull it out of the heat and let it air cool till you don't see any color.  Then do that 2 more times.  Then heat back up to critical temp and quench.  This releives any internal stress in the steel from forging it, and it shrinks or refines the internal grain structure of the steel.  All that will help your striker be less brittle after that last quench.

If you drop any good flint striker on cement or a rock it might crack/break.  It is just hardened carbon steel, and will be brittle.  And a bad hit on the end or on the handle portion can also crack/break a striker.  It is just in its nature - just like the edge on a knife or woodworking chisel.  They work best when very hard, but are then more susceptible to cracking/chipping/breaking in use.

I hope these humble thoughts help clear a few things up.  And, of course, they are but my humble opinions, and are best used in conjunction with your own research.

Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands.
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Offline Gambia

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« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2009, 11:42:46 AM »
Mike, I love your posts, so cotton pickin' much information in that grumpy old blacksmiths head of yours.
i need to get a couple more strikers from ya'
OK, now back to our regularly scheduled posts about fire pistons.

Offline wwpete52

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« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2009, 02:54:27 AM »
Isn't a Bic lighter flint and steel? (just kidding)
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