sssssssssssssscope???

[irish]

i feel the need to throw my hat in the room before i ask this question.             does anyone have any firsthand knowledge about malcom scopes being sold by dixie gun works?   are they a quality product or junk?  im thinking about mounting one on a .32 cal pedisori caplock.   (eyesight issue)     thanks  irish

[BEAVERMAN]

Not gonna happen here! try Wakemans site! talking about scopes on a sidelock here is like talking about those dam &^lines!

[mark davidson]

Beaverman, I respect your decision not to discuss the virtues of the scope in question. However, educate me a little: were scopes similar to the Malcolm not widely used back in the day on sidelocks? I mean, just how incorrect are they? I know modern jacketed sabot bullets and such were not in use back in the correct time period but scopes to my knowlege existed and were used in the sidelock era. I'm not arguing anything here, just want to know more. :-)

[Riley/MN]

Not gonna happen here! try Wakemans site! talking about scopes on a sidelock here is like talking about those dam &^lines!

Yeah scopes were around in the 1850s. So were breech loaders, and we don't talk about them here either.

[Riley/MN]

Didn't mean to be that short Mark... That's what I get for postin at work!

But while things existed in a certain era, and yes we appreciate your intent to educate yourself more on the subject, this is not the place to garner that education nor to discus such non-traditional items. I am wlking gingerly here, not trying to offend, but this is the place where people come to discuss Traditional muzzleloading, not to push the envelope of what could possibly fit in to the same era as the traditional muzzleloaders.... I hope I said that in a way that makes sense...

[mark davidson]

Riley, Thanks for your kind response and I assure you no offense was taken by me nor did I intend to open a can of worms. I am obviously new here, about two or three years.  I honestly do not understand the "why" of the limitations here. If scopes were in vogue in the 1850's, why is that subject off-limits? It is regrettable that this is not the "place" for education. What is "preservation" without education? I like this place and the people here have been very helpful but I am often absolutely amazed at the close-mindedness and unwillingness to discuss even things that are as you said period correct but still off-limits.  Can someone help me get my mind wrapped around this mentality?

[PJC]

There are some single shot,(falling block) forums that would likely have a wealth of information on this topic. I don't know any links to them but google should find something.

PJC

[rollingb]

Today, the Malcolm rifle scopes are made to look and feel like original period pieces, while serving the needs of the modern hunter.  They are NRA and ASSRA approved and have many features that hunters and competitive shooters will appreciate. There are a number of Malcolm scopes on the market today, each offering great precision and an authentic look.  The Malcolm Style Target Scopes are particularly popular for black powder shooters, hunters and target competitors.  They are fogproof and waterproof.  They have a 4" eye relief and are parallax free from 50 yards and beyond.  They are shockproof and have a caged rear mount. They have fully multicoated optics, and precision external adjustments with 50 minutes of windage on each side of zero.  The base scope, by itself, fits 3/8" dovetails front to rear and will fit a 30" barrel on single shots and a 20" barreled lever gun as it is.  It can also fit other barrel length rifles with an extension which is easy to purchase.  Gun dealers recommend having these scopes mounted by a professional gunsmith for the best results.

Malcolm scope replicas are made in a number of models and are sold by many reputable dealers.  Leatherwood/Hi-Lux Optics offers three versions of Malcolm scopes that keep to the traditional design, but with modern optics. They have a 6x Long Malcolm Scope, a 6x Short Malcolm Scope and a 3x Short Malcolm Scope.  These scopes all go perfectly with black powder cartridge rifles and combine the look of old with the function of modernity.



Please take special note of the last sentence in the above paragraph with particular reference to "black powder cartridge rifles".

[Captchee]

Ahhh cough , cough.
 
 This could be a good topic that could be learned from  , so lets turn it that way , shall we  .

 Now I don’t know about others here  but I have found little  documentation to support scopes like the Malcolm  being in vogue.,. Really ever when it came to muzzleloading rifles  .
 Now that’s not to say they were not used .  It just does not seem to be anywhere near the prevalence of todays scoped rifles .

 Now where you do see them is in long range  target  shooting .
BUT again  ,,,BUT,,,, when you get down to reading  about some of those shoots , they also  in some cases forbid the use of scopes .

Another thing I have noticed is  sometimes what people assume to be a scope ,,, isn’t a scope but a Tube sight . IE no optics .

 I had the privilege of inspecting an  original Enfield that was mounted with a Malcolm   back in the mid 1980s . This was  a rifle in the  national Infantry museum .

 The scope had  very little magnification  and its field of view was very small . Literally one would have to search for  the target ..  My  small 2x scope on my 22 has fare better optics and field of view  .
 It also appeared to me to be very week and easily knocked out of alignment .
  The armor there told me  that they also had a very bad habit of fogging up   and in times of high humidity  were about useless.
 I was also told there were to different types of alignments .
 There were early cross hairs and also  posts . These  were from what I was told , very easily  knocked out of alignment

 The  reproductions today , are what RollingB stated  . Basically nothing more then long brass tubes with modern components inside .

  So again did they exsist ,  ya they did . Were they as common as  some folks want them to be ??  
 No not that I have found .
 In vogue ?? Sorry ,  that doesn’t seem to be the case  if that comparison is even meant to be a comparable small% of what we see today  

 I would agree that they existed far more common on  some of the early cartridge rifles  but  even then   I have not found them to be very wide spread .

 What I would recommend is posting  this question in the long range shooting forum and see what hits you get .
A couple of those guys in there are very knowledgeable about  the history of that sport

 IMO your far more likly though to find suporting documentation for the use of  tall post , Creedmoore or verner style peeps then  the malcolm scope  when it comes to muzzleloaders

[mark davidson]

Very Interesting! Thanks to Rolingb and Cap for two very well stated and patient and helpful posts of information. So let's throw out the words "in vogue." Now, if you had to answer (Yes or NO)....are the Malcolm scopes on a muzzle loader absolutely period INCORRECT or not?  For example, flyfishing for trout with a flyrod and whole kernel corn is NOT correct! :-) Is a malcolm scope on a muzzle loader "THAT" incorrect as in just plain wrong and out of place or is it something that was in fact used but maybe just not that widespread?

[rollingb]

Very Interesting! Thanks to Rolingb and Cap for two very well stated and patient and helpful posts of information. So let's throw out the words "in vogue." Now, if you had to answer (Yes or NO)....are the Malcolm scopes on a muzzle loader absolutely period INCORRECT or not?  For example, flyfishing for trout with a flyrod and whole kernel corn is NOT correct! :-) Is a malcolm scope on a muzzle loader "THAT" incorrect as in just plain wrong and out of place or is it something that was in fact used but maybe just not that widespread?

I have never seen any historical references of Malcolm scopes being used on muzzleloaders shooting roundballs,... and only a few on traditional muzzleloading military arms shooting conical lead bullets during the Civil War.
No way, would I describe the use of ANY scope being used on a sidelock muzzleloader, as approaching the definition of "being traditional".  

[Two Steps]

Is a malcolm scope on a muzzle loader "THAT" incorrect as in just plain wrong and out of place or is it something that was in fact used but maybe just not that widespread?

Mark...I think your last question/sentence pretty much covers it.   We can't prove a negative (you can't prove that some ol boy didn't grab some table scraps and go fishing  
Keep your questions flowing...we all learn from others questions
Al

[mark davidson]

Thanks again for the informative answers. Now here is a situation and a question. My hunting partner has terrible eyesight, laser surgury on both eyes, special glasses, ....the works! He just absolutely cannot see the sights on his custom MLers. It is a shame but he can't. What could a Malcolm type scope be put on that actually WOULD be kinda period correct? I know he could just put a new Leupold on something and go hunt but we are both kinda addicted now to these ole flintlock guns with patched round ball and real black powder. Is there any combination of gun and Malcolm that would not be just totally WRONG or a 'fantasy' piece?

[Riley/MN]

What could a Malcolm type scope be put on that actually WOULD be kinda period correct?

Nothing.

What would be period correct would be for your friend to retire to the front porch as his lights dim and leave the huntin ta younger fellas with younger eyes.

Is that what I suggest for your friend? ABSOLUTELY NOT. There are any of a number of options to correct his malady that would work. None of them would be period correct. None of the ones that could be affixed to his firearms could be made to resemble something that "looks correct".

This saddens me, as I start to face my own optical limitations (in other words, my eyes are gettin old). I imagine the day will come when I have to give up the iron sights and try to do something else to keep hunting. It won't be "period correct", but it will keep me hunting...

just my 2 cents

[woodman]

I guess the thing is are you planning on just hunting and meeting the state laws of we're you live, for legal take? In Colorado during the Muzzleloading season Scoped Rifles are Illegal. During a regular rifle season a scoped muzzleloader would be legal.
   Now if your not into going to Historical type events Rifle Frolics, Rendezvous,Market Fairs etc . Then do what feels right for you because then what does it matter about it being P.C. or period correct.
   Woodman