Going Traditional

[vthompson]

I have a question that I was hoping that some of you guy's would be able to help me with.
Whenever I finish saving up some money, I am going to have Fletcher build me a bow and I plan on making my own arrows using flint arrowheads for my hunting tips.
Before my injury, I used to shoot and hunt with a compound bow and I bagged a deer every season. But, I always relied on the sights mounted on the bow for help.
My problem is that I have never shot a traditional bow and I was wondering how do you sight your target when using a traditional bow.
I was hoping that this is where some of you men could help me out before I get my bow from Fletcher. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.

Vernon

[ridjrunr]

I would recomend 3 things but it is my opinion only.

1) Dont over bow yourself with too much poundage

2) Read G.Fred Asbells book  " Instinctive Shooting "

3) Have fun

[rickevans]

Practice, practice and practice.  Can you throw a stone and come close to a bucket ayt 10 yards? The same hand-eye coordination works for no sights instinctive shooting. Like said above, don't get over bowed! A 45# bow will kill whitetail deer just fine, is easier on the shoulders and easier to practice with. Best of luck.

[MikeC]

My problem is that I have never shot a traditional bow and I was wondering how do you sight your target when using a traditional bow.
I was hoping that this is where some of you men could help me out before I get my bow from Fletcher. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.

Vernon

Wow...No disrespect but you have a looong way to go before you start hunting with a traditinal bow with modern broadheads let alone stone heads.

You need to find your style of shooting and pratice a whole lot before shooting game.  You need to find out first are you a gap shooter, instinctive shooter, something in between.  Are you a snap shooter or do you shoot best if you hold for a second or two.  Comfort zone, at what range can you consistantly put three arrows into a 6" circle.  Going after game with traditinal gear is not something to take lightly , or because you want to "do it the hard way".

I suggest you pratice for a year or two and find yourself before you go out and possibly wound game regularly.

[greyhunter]

Another good book (short too) is Become the Arrow, by Byron Ferguson.  He is still making fantastic shots on tv with his stick bow. He gets a little zen in his explanations but it is def a must read for all the added info. If you are serious it won't take you two years to be ready to hunt. Just be honest in your evaluation of your hunting shots.  The same as with your compound, know the equipment limitations and yours.  I started out with a recurve Bear bow as a youth and had a hard time getting used to sights on a compound many years later. Get a LIGHTER pull bow than your compound, get the correct spine arrows for it, and shoot it.  Start out at ten yards and move back as  you find you form. It's not hard and it is def some of the best fun you can have, watching your arrow hit the spot you have focused on! Lots more better archers than me will help you on this forum. You don't have a long haul til you can make a kill shot! Have fun.   Welcome to the trad world. Regards GH.

[Pitchy]

My problem is that I have never shot a traditional bow and I was wondering how do you sight your target when using a traditional bow.
I was hoping that this is where some of you men could help me out before I get my bow from Fletcher. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.

Vernon

Wow...No disrespect but you have a looong way to go before you start hunting with a traditional bow with modern broadheads let alone stone heads.

You need to find your style of shooting and practice a whole lot before shooting game.  You need to find out first are you a gap shooter, instinctive shooter, something in between.  Are you a snap shooter or do you shoot best if you hold for a second or two.  Comfort zone, at what range can you consistantly put three arrows into a 6" circle.  Going after game with traditinal gear is not something to take lightly , or because you want to "do it the hard way".

I suggest you pratice for a year or two and find yourself before you go out and possibly wound game regularly.

I agree, i`ve been hunting with a compound bow for quite a while and took a few deer with it but still haven`t hunted with my long bow.
Most the stories are about the game someone got but you seldom hear about the missed or wounded ones.
As for a tip, don`t push yourself to hard when shooting a long bow or recurve. Shoot a few arrows then give it a rest, you`ll find that your first shot is the best and it will get worse from there. The key is to do the same thing over and over and after to much practice your stance and form will fall apart and aggravation will set in.
One of these years i`m going to hunt deer with my long bow but it will be under 20 yards and when my heart says i`m ready.
Good luck on a neat gratifying sport.

[Fletcher]

Good advice from above......

Aim small miss small.

I practice instinctive shots at a 9" paper plate - focusing on the center.

When I can keep all 6 shots in the paper at a given distance, that is a distance I feel ready to hunt.

I try to get groups that I can hold the circle of my thumb and middle finger around - but that is tough with a self bow.

I can do it with my Olympic Target bow - but that is a different shooting style, and I would not/could not take that hunting!

[huntinguy]

to quote ishi or not quote him too well, " Your target is too big." Or so was his reply when he was asked why he couldn't hit a standard target but could hit gophers at 40 yards.

Howard Hill said pretty much the same thing, when you shoot at a deer you miss, when you shoot at a hair on a deer you hit. This accomplishes two things.  First you are close.  Second you are concentrating.

I have been shooting traditional (not self bows) for several years (small game).

I know that consistent practice and self analyzing is the only way you can learn to shoot for form. You must (or I feel one must) take up stump shooting to become good enough to hunt with traditional equipment. Stump shooting provides no distance markers, It provides no "dot" to shoot at, It provides for creative shooting. Think of it as shooting off the bench or shooting from standing position. One tells you what the gun and the load will do, the other tells what you can do.

I disagree with ridjrunr on one point and that is about G.Fred Asbells book " Instinctive Shooting ". Don't read it... Memorize it!

When I have tried to teach people to instinctive shoot the hardest part is getting them to understand the "aiming" is done before the bow is even raised to draw.

Laugh, shoot, giggle then analyze. The laugh again.

[Fletcher]

Thanks huntingguy - ya better join up!  Good points.

Yay for stump shooting - and I agree you just don't shoot for the stump, you pick a spot on the stump.  Focus, draw and release in one smooth motion.  That is what makes that instinctive.

Reminds me of a few years ago in Washington when I was invited to shoot with the Evergreen Archery club who had provided the targets for the archery course at Rain Dee Vous

They had a course of 40 targets spaces from 30 to 80 yards.  Scoring was 5 points for inner vital and 3 points for outer vital.  Body = 0  The group was entirely made up of super sighted compound shooters with fancy releases - except yours truly who showed up with a stick bow!

I walked the course and turned in a goose egg.

The Prez looked at my score card and said " I heard that you won the Rain Dee Vous archery course and I thought you were a pretty good shot!"

I said - "Let's walk the trail again at least 10 targets.  I will go first, but shoot from my spot.  Also, each shooter has 5 seconds to draw aim and release"  They said fine, and 4 shooters went with me.

I picked no spot longer than 25 yrads, with shorter at smaller targets (maybe 10 yards)  I kicked their butts!  Some could hardly get a shot off in time let alone acquire the bull - since their sight settings were farther out and they were not sure of the distances.

I told them they had just had a lesson in instinctive shooting.  Then back at the range house I borrowed the Prez bow and within a few rounds was plunking them in at 50yds or so with sights and release.  I told him afterward I was sort of like Quigley Down Under, "I did not say that I could NOT shoot the ...., I just prefer not too!"

[vthompson]

I have read your responses and after I have Fletcher make me a bow I am going to have to shoot and shoot until I get good at hitting what I am aiming at.
I am not taking any of the advise lightly and I will probably re-read them all again before I start shooting. I want to thank everyone that responded and I wanted to let you know that your advise didn't fall on deaf ears. Thank's again for your time,

vthompson

[mark davidson]

Vernon, Everybody has an opinion; here is mine. First- Skip Asbell's book. My opinionis that no modern archer has ever screwed up more beginning archers than Asbell. He will have you hunched over ruining your rotator cuff and trying to ignore the arrow sticking out right in front of your face. Be open minded. Try Ferguson first. Mainly, learn to AIM! No shame in aiming, only shame is missing or wounding. Start with a recurve; to me they are easier to shoot or learn to shoot with. Down the road a few dozen kills from now, maybe go to a longbow, and when you get truly bored in about ten years then maybe build your own self bow and make some flint heads and get primitive. Pay your dues first and learn to shoot a traditional bow well. Mainly, be open minded and do not get caught up in all the traditional hype about what "is" and "is not" traditional. Just learn to use your bow well and remember "It does not matter how you shoot or how you aim; it only matters what part of the target you pull your arrows out of!" JMO :-)

[Longhunter]

Well as has been said everyone is entitled to their opinion. That being said when someone ask for advice and you decide to give your opinion you should take into consideration that that opinion just might be wrong... and as such you may end up discouraging  the person or worse yet send them off in the wrong direction. ....which I can see is the case in some of the above post.

Vernon, PM me your mailing address and I'll send you a copy of "Masters Of The Bare Bow I" which I was privileged to be a part of.   I'm sure you'll be able to get some good advice from it and as a TMA member it's yours at no cost.

[mark davidson]

Ron, With all due respect, every single answer on every forum on the internet is "opinion," the opinion of the person writing the answer. No one considers his own opinion to be "wrong"; otherwise it would not be his own opinion. It is the responsibility of the questioner to weed through the opinions of other experienced shooters and see what works for him. So what is the "wrong direction"? Is it the direction that differs from your own? I stand by my opinion. Twenty years and dozens of kills into traditional archery give me the perspective to look back and have at least what I think is a valid opinion.  Asbells method did not work for me and greatly hindered my advancement in archery. That is just "my" experience. For many others his method works. To me, the number one hinderance for a new shooter is getting caught up in all the hype and mysticism of "traditional" and "instinctive" archery. It is not magic or vodoo; a bow is a weapon, a mechanical weapon whether it has wheels on it or not. Form is mechanics. By stating my "opinion" I was genuinely trying to steer Vernon in what I "think" might be the right direction or at least give him some perspective for making a decision of his own. I really can't see how my suggestion qualifies as "wrong direction" just cause it differs from the previous opinions.

[Longhunter]

Mark, I wasn't single-ling out just your opinion, but I did take exception to your remarks about Asbells book

My opinion is that no modern archer has ever screwed up more beginning archers than Asbell. He will have you hunched over ruining your rotator cuff and trying to ignore the arrow sticking out right in front of your face.

Asbells shooting style may not be for you but his book has tons of good information other that just shooting style.

Fred is a good friend of mine, he has hunted in my bow hunting camp many times, and I'll tell you that he has more archery knowledge in his little finger than many so called experts in the traditional archery field today. He is not arrogant, nor does he criticize other shooting styles. His style is not unlike Fred Bear or Howard Hill who people revere but he gets criticized for teaching a shooting style that works for him. Just because it isn't the best for you or someone else doesn't give you the right to tell others to avoid his  books and videos.

Fred is the Hunting Editor for Traditional Bowhunter Magazine, He was the President of the Pope And Young for many years, he has been the President of Compton Traditional Bowhunters since it's inception,..a position he was encouraged to take by Glenn St. Charles the Founder of Compton.

Fred has contributed more to todays Traditional Archery than any one man that I know of. To denigrate him such as you did is uncalled for.

So what is the "wrong direction"? Is it the direction that differs from your own?

The man wants to deer hunt with a self bow, and flint tipped arrows. He was discouraged to do so by some and even told to get a recurve and kill many deer with it before considering using a longbow to hunt with. THAT is steering him in a direction he obviously isn't interested in.

I've been shooting traditional archery gear since before it even WAS traditional, and hunting deer with such for 55 years. I stopped keeping score on how many deer I've taken with such equipment long ago.

I started my traditional archery business in 1980, 30 years ago. My every day contact during those 30 years with both new and old traditional minded people has given me an in site that I would not have acquired from just my own experiences.

If Vernon wants to hunt deer with a wood bow and flint arrows than by all means go for it...don't wait until you THINK you are ready. What IS ready?...when you can shoot a 3" group at 25yd's? I say know your limits,...if you can be consistent with ONE arrow, not a group of arrows. Hunting isn't about shooting groups it's about that first arrow...you very rarely get a second shot. Anyway if your distance is only 15yd's or maybe 10yd's then you're ready to hunt. Just limit your shots at game to the distance you know you can hit.

We never know how many hunting seasons we have left, the next one may be our last.  Go for it NOW...we have today but we don't know if there will  be a  tomorrow.

[mark davidson]

Ron, As usual, very well and respectfullyput. I will to some degree stand corrected. I fully recognize Asbells background and contributions to archery, and I fully recognize that there is a quantity of good information in his books.  He is a public figure by his own choice and has become a symbol for his own style of instinctive shooting.  My biggest gripe if I have a real gripe is not Asbell personally but rather the perception that many come away from his books with. The perception is that the arrow in front of your face should be invisible and that you are somehow a lesser archer for gapping or aiming some other way.  So many new archers buy into that whole symbolic method and approach traditional archery  as something magical or mystical which hinders them from learning the pure mechanical nature of shooting a bow. The very best shooters in the world, the olympians and the guys who win the US championships, IBOs, world shoots and such do not hunch over, swing draw, and refuse to reference their arrows nor do they confine their shots to incredibly close range.   I am very surprised at your position on groups. You are a renowned hunter and archer.  If a shooter cannot shoot decent groups or repeat excellent shots time after time, then what chance will that poor grouper have of putting that first arrow in the boiler room in the woods? Is such an archer just depending on buzzard luck just cause he managed to hit well with one arrow from time to time? I also agree that life is short and that if Vernon really wants to hunt with a self bow and stone points that is what he should do, like right now! :-) However, if he is interested in the whole range of traditional archery, I honestly want him to be successful. I think you, Ron, and Asbell, and likely me and everyone else on this forum want Vernon to be successful. We all must define what success means for ourselves. My "opinion" again is that the very challenging area of self bow might not be the best place to start a journey in traditional archery but if that is where Vernon wants to start then that is up to him. We all have to know our yardage limits. However, I see no reason for traditional archery to be relegated to kiddie stake distances for grown men when good equipment and practice and a solid aiming method can easily make Vernon or anybody else very competent on out to 25 yards and beyond pretty quickly. Finally, I meant no disrespect to your friend. Asbell is in the same public light as Ferguson and Chuck Adams and Ted Nugent. Lots of folks think they walk on the water and others think they are horrible. Their advice works for some and not for others as well as their methods. I just stated my opinion, no more no less, no hidden agenda other than hopefully give Vernon a little direction.