Going Traditional

[greyhunter]

Now that,is what I call a gentleman's disscussion! Very nicely done, kudos to Ron and Mark.  These are the types of members/guests that make the TMA such a great forum. I'm sure Vernon can use the wealth of advice posted here.  My compliments and regards, Greyhunter.

[sse]

Vern - Tell ya what I did a couple years ago, when the whole traditional twinge hit me in other woods skills areas, especially when  someone loaned me a semi-recurve at just 35# of pull.  no sights or gadgets.  At first, I thought "what am I doing with this kiddie bow?"  But, after some more research and experience with it, I soon learned it was a blessing in disguise.

I ordered a few accessories from 3Rivers Archery, went to Gander Mountain, where I was lucky enough to find a young kid who knew how to fit arrows to a bow.  I picked up a bunch of aluminum shafted arrows and it was off to practice.  I didn't have many options, but since I was traveling up north fairly often at the time, there was one place I would stop into and spend anywhere from 30 to 45 mins at a time, shooting those arrows.  

I had no training at all and had not ordered Aspell's book, the thing is still on my "to get" list, doggonit.  The proprietor of the range was usually the only one in the building, and every once in a while he would look up and admonish my technique, based upon his own limited traditional experience (His whole set up was for compounds).  When hunting season approached, I would see a compound guy there, with some of them practicing at distance with high accuracy, which only stirred my traditional spirits all the more.  It was even more fun, when he would look over and see a good tight group of mine, fifteen yards distant.  That was my limit, and became confident that I could make the right shot from there on in.

That fall, I had one opportunity that I won't forget.  I was again on the road mixing work, travel and play.  I happened upon a sunny, windy, cool day in mid-October.  I got into my spot about 2:00 PM with my rig and all decked out in a ground blind I built up over the summer.  After nearly two hours of enjoying the day, and with the substantial lunch I had making a me a little drowsy, I hung my bow on the tree and looked around to see where to lay my head back.  Just then I heard some leaves rustling, and up came bounding toward me, just as I had dreamed, was a six pointer.  He was huge in comparison to his rack, so by the next year he'd have a rack to match his considerable bulk.  Anyway, he bounded right up to about seven yards, looked around like he was enjoying the day as much as me, then quartered just a tad away and put his head down, displaying the perfect entry to his right boiler room.  Had no idea I was there.  

I was stunned, and tried to retrieve the bow, knowing the slightest sound would alert him, and it sure enough did.  He bounded away about 10 yards and then spent a minute or two looking me over, while I sat there thinking about the opportunity I just had and let slip away!

While after that, I got a hold of another semi-recurve at about 50#, and also a long bow, and returned the borrowed bow.  I also got a hold of some cedar shaft arrows that a pal at my club built.  For the last few years I haven't gotten in the practice, but I do intend to take it back up, practice with the new set up, find another good spot, and do some bow hunting closer to traditional, once again.  

Moral of the story, with a little desire it is possible to start from scratch, learn, practice, and get the chance to take big game in traditional style.  

Best of luck.

[Longhunter]

[mark davidson]

Interesting read and educational as well! Philosophically real truth and success often lie in the middle of things not in either extreme. The thing that so draws me to Ferguson is his blending of instinctive and gap aiming. You learn what the arrow "looks" like in relation to your target by looking at it not ignoring it. With practice that "look" becomes instinctive. I think one without the other leaves an archer handicapped on one way or the other. I use both methods. Under 20 yards about all I do is pick a spot and shoot hopefully with good form. Longer shots make seeing and picking a spot harder so at 30 and 40 yards, I unashamedly use the tip of my arrow as reference and gap. My point on is 30 yards and a top of the back hold at 40 will drop arrows neatly into the ten ring or the boiler room.  I see so many avowed instinctive shooters  who really struggle to hit well or at all sometimes at ranges beyond 25 yards. Being willing to embrace the gap or point on method really advanced my shooting both in 3D and in the woods hunting and allowed me if I so chose to cleanly take game confidently beyond 20 yards which is about my instinctive limit. As for "mechanics" the lever and fulcrum and the inclined plane like most simple machines do not have wheels or other "compound bow" parts. A traditional bow is a weapon, a machine if you will, a simple one that enhances our ability to launch an arrow much farther and faster and harder than we can do with our bare hands. The above description of the three steps of shooting and much of the rest of the description is as mechanical as anything I ever read. Rock steady bow arm like a machine the same every time, rock solid release that looses an arrow like a machine without flying out into space is machine like solidity. Your eye and your "look" are also a repeatable element of the step by step mechanized act of shooting your tool. I describe my approach to shooting as mechanical to emphasize the mechanics of form and repeatability. To me at least, it is not mystical. We may have to respectfully agree to disagree. :-) But, it is not a mystery to me that my arrow flies true to the target. It is the result of a very calculated and mechanical implementation of the mechanical act of shooting my bow, my bow without any wheels or cables on it or sights except my eyes and the things my eyes can see like the arrow and the target.  I have found that for me at least, a mechanical approach including some pretty conscious aiming keeps me from having those real good days and those real bad days that I had while trying to do the pure instinctive thing. My good days may not be great by most standards but my worst days are no longer very bad at all and as a hunter that is my goal...to be competent, confident, and capable every day in the woods with every shot to the best of my ability without a high standard deviation resulting in wounded or lost animals from bad shooting.  Again, a very interesting and informative and respectful discussion.

[greyhunter]

I started bow hunting in my early teens, with a Bear recurve. I didn't shoot competition, but I was able to shoot squirrels and rabbits on a regular basis, I learned how to do this just by shooting the bow at paper plates in my backyard. With the recent bursitus in my shoulders and arthrtis in my wrists, I have sold my compound and returned to the trad bow. I definetly shoot/aim gap style, but as Mark noted after 20 yards I just concentrate on a spot . Instinctive? I don't know. All I know is I can hit a Delta deer in the boiler room at 50 yards, it's a miracle, no pins, no range finder,light weight, no release,( it's at the end of my wrist). Nice, I had forgot how simple bowhunting can be. I think the single most important thing to do is concentrate on a spot, just like you did playing catch with your dad, start out at short range and just keep moving back as  you find your form. Most  of all enjoy the sport, I know I am again. You do not have to do penance or intern for years, in a short time Vernon you will hit your mark, and it is satisfying indeed. Now git shootin and quit readin!  

[mark davidson]

Greyhunter, If you can keep all your shots in the 8 or 10 scoring zone on a 3D target at 50 yards day in and day out, my hat is truly off to you.  I certainly can't.  I make no effort to shoot instinctively past 20 yards. At 30 and 40 I use the arrow tip consciously. It keeps me consistent. My first three shots at 40 a couple of days ago went like this. Arrow one and two both hit a Mtn. Dew can stuck vertically in the middle of my shot out 10 ring on a McKenzie target. The third shot was barely a decent scoring 8 that was honestly a bit farther back than I would have liked in the real world of hunting. Still I was pleased with the three shots cause the very worst of them was really not all that bad. That kind of results is what gapping does for me. If I had just shot instinctively at that range I would have maybe had three scoring hits or would maybe have spent 20 minutes trying to find my arrows that missed the whole thing or worse yet I may have pulled one out of the knee and one out of the hip and the other out of the kill zone. Very, very few people can "CONSISTENTLY"  and dependably hit the kill zone from 30 to 50 yards without some very conscious aiming method and some reference than pure instinctive. My hat is off to those that can do it. Still I do not think that is the best way for a new shooter to approach our passion. JMO again. :-)

[greyhunter]

Mark, I would never shoot a deer at 50 yards with a stick bow or a compound. I was just fooling around and kept backin up from my deer target and I was able to hit in the boiler room.  My point was the ability to shoot without ranging is the neat part of trad shooting.  I "used" to shoot a 65 lb comound bow to 30 yds accurately, 2" groups. That said I never took a deer, or attempted to shoot one beyond 25 yds.  I hunt thick hardwoods and the shots are up close and personal, being able to shoot beyond 20 yds accurately is to be admired, but for me not even considered. Now that I will be using a longbow,I def. will not attempt beyond 20 yds. The idea is to kill the deer not mark him for future reference. My only point in this post is to tell Vernon not to think he is in for a long technical internship,  as in two or three years before he is allowed to think of shooting a deer. I appreciate yours and Longhunters educational dissertations, excellant advise, well taken. I'm not and instructor, or an olympic archer, I have taken deer with a bow and hope to continue to do so. I do not belittle any science or technical advice on trad archery.My hat is off to dedicated professionals of archery.  I'm just a self taught ridgerunner and I'm sure if Vernon applies himself he will be capable in  a few months. When the moment of truth comes he will either succeed or choke and miss. Much like all of us have with a bow or long gun.

[mark davidson]

Greyhunter, Very, very well said! I too think Vernon will be in the woods hunting within a few days if he will apply himself. Like all beginners, his distance will be restricted at first. My main point in my chosen method and philosophy is that the distance does not "HAVE" to always remain 20 yards or less unless the archer just wants it to remain there. Taking game with traditional gear beyond 20 yards is very, very achievable. One might have to be open minded and learn some different aiming methods but killing effectively without "marking for future reference" is very doable for  a dedicated stickbow shooter. It offends me muchly to have other archers look down on us stickbow shooters as incapable of shooting or hunting beyond the kiddie stakes at an average 3D shoot. I do STRIVE for the 15 yard shot.....however, I will take a 30 yard shot on a deer or elk in a heartbeat if the path is clean and the animal is relaxed. I am not an instructor or a national champion...just a good ole southern boy who likes a stickbow and tries hard to learn to shoot it with the least limitations possible. I've only killed two elk, both cows, but both shots were over 30 yards and that is how it had to be. I think in conclusion we in traditional archery limit ourselves way more than is necessary but I reckon that is another subject for another day. I just hope Vernon gets going and gets ready for hunting season and has a good successful year by his own standards whatever those may come to be. :-)

[Longhunter]

I've only killed two elk, both cows, but both shots were over 30 yards and that is how it had to be. I think in conclusion we in traditional archery limit ourselves way more than is necessary

I couldn't disagree more with your last sentence. Hunting with traditional weapons whether it be wood bow or flintlock gun, the challenge is not how far away we can kill an animal but rather how close we can get to make a clean kill. I don't think a traditional hunter CAN limit himself more than necessary, as for myself, I try to get close enough to see my reflection in their eyes.

In years passed I've taken shots that were longer that I should have taken. I've also wounded game that I didn't recover, some because of those long shots. Even if I can hit a target with some regularity at a certain long distance in practice, that  doesn't mean I should risk wounding an animal at that range when hunting. Practicing in your yard or on the range is totally different than hunting in the field.

During practice you're calm and calculated, but when you're hunting and game is sighted you're breathing and heart rate is elevated to the point that your whole physical and mental being puts you in a different realm. You forget most of what you learned in practice and you might even be shaking a bit adding to the difficulty of making a good shot...  

If someone discovers a way to stop this feeling that makes you so excited that you can hardly pull your bow or hold the sights of your flintlock steady then .....PLEASE,.. PLEASE ....DON'T tell me how to stop it...I LOVE that feeling.

[mark davidson]

Ron, Once again, we will just have to respectfully agree to disagree. Nobody has to be right or wrong; sometimes just different has to be OK.  A good traditional bow with well tuned arrows is perfectly capable of cleanly taking game at least out to 40 yards assuming the archer is practiced and conditioned and skilled enough to use the bow's potential.  I like being close as well and have killed deer off the ground with only a thin sheet of mesh at under five yards. I like that feeling too.  However, if that rush were all I was after, I might put the bow down and take up the spear. One of the elk I mentioned burst from cover while I was walking up to the crest of a big hill in Colorado; she darted to the crest and stopped broadside to look back. The shot was about 35 yards and was not going to get any better. I unashamedly took the shot and watched my arrow disappear right behind the shoulder. A short track later and my tag was filled and I spent many evenings enjoying elk steak back in Mississippi. I would like the shot to have been closer but that day at that moment it was around 35 and that is how it had to be. I had practiced endlessly on out to 50 yards and was confident in my equipment and my shooting and I took the shot. Does that make me a lesser hunter or a lesser woodsman somehow cause I could not get closer and see my reflection in her eye?
  I have had this same discussion on here about my flintlock rifle.  I killed a deer last year from the ground with no cover at 8 yards one morning; I had to switch over and shoot left handed since she was on my right side.  The following week I killed a nice little buck from the same brushpile at 93 yards. I see no shame in either shot. My flinter is a RIFLE, not a bow or a blowgun. It is capable at 100 yards and I have put in the time and effort to be capable with it! I just cannot see what is wrong with that.

[Longhunter]

Mark, a lot has to do with the type of bow, poundage, skill level ect. If someone is shooting a 40# hickory bow with flint tipped arrows he obviously shouldn't be shooting at an elk or deer at 35yds. Also an elk, caribou, or moose is a bigger target than a whitetail deer.

I've made some good shots on game that a lot of people wouldn't even try. I once shot a running buck that had jumped from his bed in front of me. As he bounded over the high grass of the field the arrow from my 70# laminated longbow  caught him right through the heart at 35yd's

Another time I missed a nice buck at 20yd's, shot right over his back. He ran out into the field and stopped broadside. I drew back my 85# Hill longbow not having any intention of shooting, but it felt right so I let go. The arrow took the buck right behind the shoulder, the distance was a paced off 60yd's

Another time Jerry Brumm from Great Northern bows and I were hunting caribou together in Quebec. We were in a boat with our Eskimo guide going up river to our hunting area. Two bull caribou swam across the river in front of us. I told our guide to cut the engine and wait until they reached the shore. I told Jerry when they hit the shore line, you take the one on the left and I'll take the one on the right.

I thought when the hit land that they'd shake off the water and give us a standing shot from the boat. The both took off like quarter horses, one to the left, one to the right. I was in the bow of the boat and drew my 80# longbow and swung a lead on the running caribou on the right. I gave no thought to distance or how far to lead him. My eyes were glued on the running animal as my computer brain calculated all of the elevation and lead for me. The arrow arched out and made contact in the animals side angling into the opposite shoulder. We watched the animal go down shortly after. The shot was about 45-50yd's

Jerry didn't shoot at his caribou, he said he just didn't feel comfortable with the shot....and that's fine. Although I made the shot, luck plays a factor in a shot like that. Sometimes it's good luck, sometimes it's bad luck.

I don't advocate long shots with a traditional bow because I don't want to encourage new bowhunters to try shots that are beyond their skill level. Like I said, I've made risky shots in the past but that doesn't mean I was doing the right thing.

[mark davidson]

Ron,  Thanks for the stories. I always enjoy your stories and I often find inspiration from your exploits. We are to a great degree on the same page, perhaps just using different words. I totally agree with you in not encouraging new bowhunters(or old ones either for that matter) to take shots beyond their skill level.  I simply like to encourage new shooters to realize the potential of traditional equipment and  set the bar high and then work hard and for however long it takes to get there. Ron, you and many other traditioan archers like you began some time just like the rest of us at the beginning with a bow and some arrows and a thirst for the skill to use them well. You and the shots you made in your last post are testiment to the fact that the skill can be aquired to shoot far and shoot well assuming one is willing to work hard to develop those skills. Luck may have a little to do with such shots but I very much discount the luck factor. Your skill made the main contribution to those shots. The traditional bow can be shot very well even on live game the size of a whitetail on out to 40 yards or so by anyone willing to learn to do it. 30 yards is very, very attainable. For someone to CHOOSE to shoot under 20 is a personal and respectable choice. I just like to see it more about choice than ability. Choice is a limiting factor. Ability is most often not. The really close in your face, see yourself in their eyes, bow and muzzle loader shots are the most exciting. Pulling off a well placed longer shot is also very, very gratifying to me. The mid range or "average" shots made are the ones that bore me. :-)

[Longhunter]

The mid range or "average" shots made are the ones that bore me. :-)

I guess I haven't got there yet, I still get excited with any and all shots that I get...

[Fletcher]

I was in my mid 20's and thought myslef to be a good archery shot.  I had placed well in competition shooting and practiced a lot at a range and 'stump shooting' with my 48# Bear Magnum to prepare for Elk hunting season.

The second day I had several responses from my bugling attempts, but to my surprise a large cow came broadside at sbout 40 yards.

I was most interested in the meat, so I took the shot.  It was slightly uphill, but otherwise open.

My hit on the cow was high in the paunch.  I had overcompensated the uphill angle and there may have been a bit of 'string jump' by the cow.  I tracked that cow most of the day, even after the blood trail ran out.  One of the most dissapointing days in my life - never found her.

I swore to myself to never take a shot again that I was unsure of making.  From that day I worked on my nerves and my skill at hunting.  I have not lost an animal since, but I have passed up a lot of shots I am sure other archers would have taken.

I also grimmace at the numbers of reports each year of game animals found that had been wounded by archers - most by compound shooters as evidence by the plastic vanes on the arrows found - although some trad style shooter do use plastic.

The Montana DFW gives a booklet call Ethical Game Hunting at their hunters ed courses (both rifle and bow)  I totally agree with that.

My conclusion is - don't be afraid to shoot a bow and practice by whatever style makes you successful.  Don't refuse advice from other shooters that are successful, but prove what is good for you.
All the influences that can affect your hunt and shot like Ron said above can happen.  I just ask you not to take a shot that you do not have a 90% confidence factor in with gun or bow, and by all means know your target and what is beyond it before you shoot.

Fletch

[Longhunter]

Amen to that Fletch,..