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Author Topic: It is starting.....  (Read 2102 times)

Offline Captchee

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Re: It is starting.....
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2011, 10:35:01 AM »
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I just don't know how much of my machinist thinking transfers to gun building. I am used to working with datums and projections... metal is my thing... not so much wood.

 well most all of it . just look at the wood as a soft  metal .  Use the knowledge you have and how its applied so as to make the parts you do .
 The  only real difference is that  your going to have to learn to trust your eye  to tell your hands what to do .  You can use all your other tools  to check your work/ tolerances  . Just like  if you were turning a part .  You are now the mill or lathe  

 as to the last part . that’s not uncommon .  allot of folks are better at their bright work   or better at the wood work .. very few , to include myself ,are good at both aspects

 IMO good choice in books .  Shumways writings are what I learned on many years ago .
 It also is better to read all of the book before you start . That way  you understand how  and why shummay is doing what he is .
 If you don’t and try to do things  a chapter at a time , your never going to understand why  he has done a given thing  because it relates to something a few chap peters away .
don’t get me wrong here , you still have to follow the order of build . But it helps a lot to understand the WHY of that order before you start .
 Where the book does fall short is that  it doesn’t provide a lot of photos .  
While it can  leave a  first time  person with questions . IMO this is good because it makes you think . You have to take your time and work through the lack of understanding .
 Thus down the road  you will have the mind set to  figure out  how something’s were done . Basically its training you to be self reliant and how to analyze the situation   . This is one of the biggest things , if I look back , that shumways book taught me .
  I can tell its working on you to because your asking why Does this need to be done ? .
soon you will be able to  backwards plan  and answer that question . to the point  when you see a photo  of a gun you will be able to  it as small projects . realizing just how each project relates to eachother and  the order in which they were done .
Today people want photos to show them why . Thus  when asked why something needs to be done , they say ; ahhh because .
  See they don’t know . They just followed what someone else did .
 They look at a photo  of a finished work and wonder . But  few have the natural ability to figure it out .
Case in point . The LaPage im working on  had an adjustable rear sight .  All its working are hidden under the standing breech . I found no photos showing these workings .
 But after many long hours of setting there starring at the photos , it finally dawned on me . My mind finally clicked  and I realized just how overly simple it was . Along with that came the process needed to complete the working adjustable sight .
 Im 99% sure  if someday I do run across a photo of an original ,  im going to be dead on  in my assessment.
 IMO  being able to do that is  one of the things shummway was trying to teach from the very start . It maynot have been intentional . But it happened never the less  

 Right now your probably looking at a drawing of your finished shock on the side of your plank and wondering ;Why do I need to plane this  top squire when im just going to remove it ?
 Well  because  what you did was  that you didn’t cut your plank ¼ to ½  over size  of your drawing . If you had , you wouldn’t be cutting off what you squared up . The process of squaring  brings the top of the comb down to  very close to the final finished top edge of the  comb .
 See  shumway doesn’t cover drawing out the stock on paper . He is drawing the stock out on the wood . Thus that big plank he starting with is all trued up  so he can  do his reference lines . Thus he has enough wood to allow for drop , cast and such .
 But if you have you stock outline already drawn onto the plank . Then your ahead of what he is doing at this step .
So you should have a stock blank cut to approx ¼ larger  then what your finished project should be  . Then that is all squared up so as  to start placing your reference lines.
Does that make since or am I confusing you ?

your squaring things up is to ensure that you start with parallel surfaces. Just like when you put a part in your mill.
  this helps  you draw your center line is drawn  . From that line all your measurements are taken  and drawn at 90 deg . It also ensures that  when you clamp the stock so as to drill a hole ,  your doing so with a true  base .
 Its also going to help  you with your depth measurement for the barrel inlet .

 When it comes to the comb area , having the top edge square and the sides parallel, allows you to  take proper measurements for the butt plate placement as well as  the cheek piece placement. It also ensures that if the stock has any twist , cant or offset ,  its there because the builder put it there . It gives you a proper base for all your measurements, just like it does on the forestock  .

 If you don’t do this then your going to have to remember to compensate .
 The other thing I would  remind you is to not forget about your files and rasps .
 Use these tools to bring things down . Then use your plane to  do the finish  truing

 My copy of shumways work may be different then yours . But on page 32 or close to it ,is a  picture of the beginning steps your going through .
 Myself I start with the stock looking like #2. I then square the sides and the  barrel area and the top and bottom edge  ..
 I then draw my centerline all the way around the stock . I then draw in my cast line ..
I then  come off that center line 90 deg and mark the  placment of  each side of the barrel ,my lock mortices , entry thimble , nose of the comb , begining of the cheek plate .............
 Keep in mind all this is being done  to provide references . The stock should at this point still be way to thick  in all its demission’s  . the only part that’s going to not change , or change very little , is along the  barrel . This area will then only  be changed as you do the final shaping .
Again all this work shumway is showing is  all setup for  the next steps  in the actual inletting and layout of the parts . Once you get a few stocks under your belt , your going to be able to do a lot of this by eye . Thus you will need less references to go by .
but tell then its best you use as many refrances as you can .

So here is my advise to you . If you think you can remember to compensate  in your layout for the  commb  being out of square on the top edge . Then go for it . Carry your lines across just as your thinking . Just make sure that you sides are parallel to start  and that the plank is way wider then  what you need .
 Always remember that just like  with your mill work . What you want is fully  hidden inside that plank of wood  . Its up to you to remove all the  surrounding material   leaving only the  item  left .
 
the important part is to follow the order of build  so as to ensure that each part relates properly to the next part . IE the barrel placement  dictates the lock placement by its breech location  .  Which in turn dictates the side plate and  trigger placement  and final position of the  lock panels  . Triggers dictate the butt plate and  trigger guard  ………..
its like a tree growing from a seed . It all starts off  with that seed and no mater how big the tree grows  or how  many branches it makes , it all starts and relates to  its base .
Right now your base  for all the above is  the placement of your references. The base of those references is  in truing your  plank .

 i also want to say this . Im not very good a writing . The longer my posts get , the more  they wonder . As such im going to send you a PM with my #
 If I have confused you or your still unsure ,  then step back  and give me a call .
 I can line you out real quick over the phone . No issue

Offline huntinguy

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Re: It is starting.....
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2011, 03:44:11 AM »
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"the important part is to follow the order of build so as to ensure that each part relates properly to the next part . IE the barrel placement dictates the lock placement by its breech location . Which in turn dictates the side plate and trigger placement and final position of the lock panels . Triggers dictate the butt plate and trigger guard ………..
its like a tree growing from a seed . It all starts off with that seed and no mater how big the tree grows or how many branches it makes , it all starts and relates to its base ."

This light dawned on me today as I was working on the barrel.

I started to see why the barrel has to be set first, Then the lock becomes dependent on the barrel and then the trigger... etc. I was, am, not really, the light is starting to come, on why the butt plate goes where it does.

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"What you want is fully hidden inside that plank of wood . Its up to you to remove all the surrounding material leaving only the item left.
[/quote][/quote]

I am used to working off casting and machine planes. The big difference is that at work they are numbers in space and I can see them in my mind, here... they are more of a feeling in wood... much different. I do understand the square and perpendicular thing. That is why today I marked the forearm as master, so I wouldn't' forget the butt area is warped and twisted.

my stock is still full blank size, I have not started cutting it down yet. I do, did, have a reason for that. 1, I am not sure of my wood working skills and this way I can start carving the barrel Chanel high and get the feel of it before I get too far into the wood. 2, there was another person building their rifle and missed on the barrel channel. The suggestion was to re-cut deeper if possible... I just wanted to save that life vest for myself.

I redrew my lines on the top of the blank last night and saw that the wood is warped and twisted. IF I try to square as Shumway suggests I will take my blank too small. However, knowing I want about .250 of cast, I redrew with my barrel center line, with the barrel channel portion of the stock, and set that line to the top end of the comb and that in turn set my cast almost exactly where I want it to be. In other words the wood is warped about .250 so it all works out for me even to the .375 for the cheek piece. (in short there is a .250 variation between the center line as it is between the blank ends and where the barrel channel line, following the forearm section of the barrel meets the front of the comb.)

I really started this project thinking this was all a series of components assembled together, I have now discovered this is one component built upon another.

Considering I wanted to make as much of this rifle as I could... I now realize this is going to take a very long, long time.  

 
Quote
Today people want photos to show them why . Thus when asked why something needs to be done , they say ; ahhh because .
See they don’t know . They just followed what someone else did .

Never was me, I need to understand what the reasons are, the mechanics, the history of a situation.

This is really beginning to become fun  :bl th up
Anything worth shooting is worth shooting once.

Offline huntinguy

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Re: It is starting.....
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2011, 12:11:33 AM »
I got back to the project today. (Life happened)

 First item of business was to bottom grind the tap so I could get flush to the bottom of the breach. This was my solution. It gave a nice hollow grind to the bottom of the tap.

[attachment=1:owan8k8w][/attachment]tap.jpg[/attachment:owan8k8w]

There is a tutorial on this site that made installing a breech plug look soo easy…. Professionals at work do that…. This is going to take me some time.

This is the reason all of this started. Some years back… someone  :oops: )
Anything worth shooting is worth shooting once.

Offline huntinguy

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George is going to make me start drinking!
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2011, 12:25:31 PM »
I almost got my breech plug in last night. .004 to go and get the clocking right.

In the book the American Longrifle, George says the flash hole is supposed to be off the breech plug by half the hole diameter or half the flash hole liner. He also states that the back of the lock fence should be even with the back of the barrel.

So, on my lock the back fence to center of pan is 3/8 inch. My breech plug is close to 5/8 long. I don't see how I can get his numbers.

My breech plug is 9/16 18 and the barrel is 45 cal. Can I get away with counter boring my breech plug and putting my flash hole liner through the barrel and the breech plug into the counter bore... Or am I asking for trouble?

I found this image on another forum. [attachment=0:2k6qv5cu][/attachment]breech plug.jpg[/attachment:2k6qv5cu]
It is kinda what I am talking about but I would drill for the liner into the counter bored area. How deep can I go with the counter bore before I get into trouble. I think I would have to go in about 3/8 deep (I figured about the same diameter.)
Anything worth shooting is worth shooting once.

Offline Captchee

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Re: It is starting.....
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2011, 12:50:51 PM »
today we use a longer plug  that doesnt allow this alignment .
 fit your  flashhole then set the lock to it .
as to counterboring or doing a patent breech . yes you can do that . BUT  the  channel needs to be smaller then  the plug your showing.  which looks nice but  i wouldnt trust a plug made of brass or  bronze .
 now it could be a alloy and that would be fine . but it doesnt apear to be .
 but anyway . ya  you could counter bore  the center  so as to provied a 1/4 inch hole .
 but your incresing the chances that fouling will rear its head and creat an issue down the road

Offline huntinguy

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Re: It is starting.....
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2011, 02:39:34 PM »
Well, I think I have learned, lets see, 8 flats, .150 or so of barrel refaced.... Yep, I have learned a whole lot of ways not to put in a breach plug.... :bl th up

Stock work starts next...
Anything worth shooting is worth shooting once.

Offline Captchee

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Re: It is starting.....
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2011, 11:02:53 AM »
Yep .
 But don’t forget that you also still have to draw file the barrel . Which will bering the flats down to  match the tang .
 Your plug face  to the inside barrel shoulder looks good  by the way

Offline huntinguy

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Re: It is starting.....
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2011, 03:31:51 PM »
Thanks for the encouragement Captchee and the advise.

These are the things I found out doing this.

I started trimming the breach plug using a 10 inch smooth cut mill file. I found that was too hard to control as far a keeping things flat goes, and it removes material TOO fast.

I then switched to a Swiss pattern file. This was too flexible and started to crown the plug. I did find I had more control over the amount of material coming off though.

I then switched to a 6 inch double cut pillar file. That might have worked but being double cut... one mistake and... darn... another trip around.

I then switched to 220 grit wet/dry sand paper placed flat on a mirror (I used cutting oil on the paper for lubrication). This worked pretty well. But, still, it is amazing how little material needs to come off to fit a breech plug.

I finally settled with 400 grit wet/dry using the mirror method. I have to admit, this worked the best for me and for those who are not file savvy I would recommend this method.

Being as how I had used up one full thread of the breech plug I decided to go for fit only. Once I got the fit the way I wanted it, I used the lathe to re-bore and face the barrel to get the proper clocking.

I believe I have somewhere over 30 hours in just fitting the plug... At this rate I may have this rifle done and ready for my great-great-grandchildren.

Capachee,  said to go slow... I just didn't realize how slow slow was.  :rt th
Anything worth shooting is worth shooting once.

Offline huntinguy

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I need LOTS of gin.....
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2011, 04:25:13 PM »
Life keeps getting in the way of the important stuff.

So, I have the barrel almost inlet... well I have about .06 in depth to go. I keep using lipstick (gals at walmart are starting to look at me funny....) to mark the stock high points... HOW the double rammrods am I supposed to keep the octagonal angles correct??? I have been using a 1/4 chisels to work the high spots but I think I am loosing the angles. I lipstick up the barrel, put it in the stock, slide it back and forth, give it a light clamp and tap, then remove it... and now NO lipstick marks??????   :Doh!

Please, some advise or gin

(BTW, I don't have a clue what gin is... so joking on that one. )
Anything worth shooting is worth shooting once.

Offline Captchee

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Re: It is starting.....
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2011, 08:33:32 PM »
Myself I don’t use lipstick . I use an indelible marker . Set the  barrel in place and  lightly tap it .
 Then when you remover the  transferred color  just  remove enough to remove the color . What your after when the barrel is  fully inlet it will have full color  everywhere . But if you remove to much wood , then you end up chasing yourself. Because the area around  the area you just removed , is now to low .
Strait barrels are a lot easier to inlet because you can  use the breech end  as a scraper . But you have  to go slow and make sure the barrel doesn’t turn as you scrape back and forth

Offline huntinguy

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Re: It is starting.....
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2011, 02:49:22 AM »
Thanks,

I was thinking about using the barrel like that but was worried it wouldn't work. I will give it a try next week when I get another chance to work on it.
Anything worth shooting is worth shooting once.

Offline Kermit

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Re: It is starting.....
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2011, 08:01:24 PM »
This is the kind of help none of us can afford to buy!!! Way to go, Cap! You're a patient man. And did I mention smart? Or skilled?
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly."
Mae West

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