Hodgdon Black Powder????

[prairie dog]

The BSA black powder substitute rule is like their "no sheath knives" rule.
National says they don't have such a rule. However, I know of no BSA camp that will allow either and they always state "it's against the rules".  They won't tell you "whose rules".

[Gambia]

I do remember the prohibition of sheath knives (fixed blade knives worn in a belt sheath) that applied to summer camp but I don't remember it being enforced by the scout master of the local troops.
Here is the section of the Rifle Shooting Merit Badge pertaining to the muzzle loader option;
OPTION C --- MUZZLE - LOADING RIFLE SHOOTING
a. Discuss a brief history of the development of muzzle-loading rifles.
b. Identify principal parts of percussion and flintlock rifles and discuss how they function.
c. Demonstrate and discuss the safe handling rules of muzzle-loading rifles.
d. Identify the various grades of black powder and their proper use.
e. Discuss proper safety procedures pertaining to black powder use and storage.
f. Discuss proper components of a load.
g. Identify proper procedures and accessories used for loading a muzzle-loading rifle.
h. Demonstrate the knowledge, skills, and attitude necessary to safely shoot a muzzle-loading rifle on a range, including range procedures.
i. Shoot a target with a muzzle-loading rifle using the five fundamentals of firing the shot.
j. Identify the materials needed to clean a muzzle- loading rifle safely. Using these materials, demonstrate how to clean a muzzle-loading rifle safely.
k. Identify the causes of a muzzle-loading rifle's failing to fire and explain or demonstrate proper correction procedures.
l. Discuss what points you would consider in selecting a muzzle-loading rifle.
m. Using a muzzle-loading rifle of any caliber and shooting from a bench rest or supported prone position, fire three groups (three shots per group) that can be covered by the base of a standard-size soft soft drink can.
n. Center the group on the target and fire three groups (five shots per group). According to the target used, each shot in the group must meet the following minimum score: (1) at 25 yards using NRA A-23 or NMLRA 50-yard targets - 7; (2) at 50 yards using NRA A-25 or NMLRA 100 yard targets - 7. [/size]  And here is what the NMLRA says about instructing the muzzle loader course;

NRA-NMLRA Basic Muzzleloading Rifle:The course is 12 hours in length and includes classroom instruction and time on a range shooting a muzzleloading rifle. Students learn the NRA’s three rules for safe gun handling; parts; loading; shooting; cleaning; shooting from a standing position and shooting from a crossed stick position; and continued opportunities for skill development. Students will receive the Muzzleloading Rifle Handbook, NRA Gun Safety Rules brochure, Muzzleloading Student Examination, Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Qualification booklet, course completion certificate. (Lesson Plan 1985, reprint 1-08)[/size].
I can't find anything prohibiting traditional black powder being used, but maybe I'm not looking in the right places?

[Fletcher]

Bull - can you edit that section from the #2 font?  My old eyes caint see it.

From the Nattional Camp School that I attended a few years ago - at least BSA Camps are limited to:

1. .50 cal or smaller
2. Percussion cap only
3. Single trigger of 3 lb pull or greater
4. Commercially approved balck power substitutes only.

I am in Denver for more than another month - so can't quote the NCS paragrah untill I get back home.

Liailities brought on by law suits from scum sucking lawyers are the real problem - don't matter which side of the isles in Congress they sit!

[Gambia]

There, that should be easier to read.  I still would like to know why substitutes can be used while traditional black powder cannot and where that is found.

[greggholmes]

I have 2 cans, anyone need a pour spout?

[Riley/MN]

Bull - can you edit that section from the #2 font?  My old eyes caint see it.

From the Nattional Camp School that I attended a few years ago - at least BSA Camps are limited to:

1. .50 cal or smaller
2. Percussion cap only
3. Single trigger of 3 lb pull or greater
4. Commercially approved balck power substitutes only.

I am in Denver for more than another month - so can't quote the NCS paragrah untill I get back home.

Liailities brought on by law suits from scum sucking lawyers are the real problem - don't matter which side of the isles in Congress they sit!

I just reread the rules the other day - #4 says Commercial black powder or approved substitute. I have never once since I have been told that Scouts could not use real black powder been able to find it in writing....

[prairie dog]

I believe Camp Directors are misinterpreting or misquoting the rules.  I know a lot of my club members have stopped volunteering to help with Scout Camp mountain man programs because of the silly rules and training requirements.  

One camp in particular is always crying for volunteers for their winter program.  Then they tell the volunteers "you can't display your firearm in camp. You can't use black powder.  We don't want you to wear your sheath knives on your belt. You can't camp in the program area." and on and on.  Then they insist that you take their training courses regardless of your level of expertise or previous experience teaching youth.  That just doesn't appeal to rendezvous type folks.

The Safari Club in my area does things right and several of us do volunteer twice a year to teach muzzle loading rifle shooting to the youth through their program.  We use our personal rifles and the Safari Club supplies the powder, balls, patches, and caps.  They will not allow the kids to shoot flintlocks but they do encourage us to display and demonstrate them.  We are encouraged to dress in period dress and display knives, hawks, pistols and other "possibles" of the time.  

In my opinion the Safari Club is presenting a higher quality muzzle loading program for youth while the BSA is missing the mark.

[Ironhand]

I believe Camp Directors are misinterpreting or misquoting the rules.  I know a lot of my club members have stopped volunteering to help with Scout Camp mountain man programs because of the silly rules and training requirements.  

One camp in particular is always crying for volunteers for their winter program.  Then they tell the volunteers "you can't display your firearm in camp. You can't use black powder.  We don't want you to wear your sheath knives on your belt. You can't camp in the program area." and on and on.  Then they insist that you take their training courses regardless of your level of expertise or previous experience teaching youth.  That just doesn't appeal to rendezvous type folks.

I have worked with the BSA for years and I am sad to say that your are correct. Camp Directors are often ignorant but more often being pressured by those above them to enforce these absurd rules. The root cause is often ignorance and fear of lawsuits but in many counsel execs there seems to be a need to be in control.

I still work for the scouts but I rarely teach for them anymore. Sad.

Iron hand

[sse]

Wauuggghhhh....this is depressing to read this.

[russ t frizzen]

One thing to keep in mind when using old powder is that sometimes people mix any dark colored powders together, not realising that some smokeless powder is dark colored. I won't buy opened or partial cans of BP for this reason.
                                                                               Dan