Separated charge and ball

[Stormrider51]

Here's something to think about.  We all "know" that not running the ball completely down on top of a charge is a no-no.  Right?  Sure way to blow up a muzzle loader.  So what about a metallic cartridge loaded with BP?  I've personally loaded and fired .50-140-3 1/4" Sharps rounds where the case was no more than half filled with BP and the gun didn't blow up.  And what about the match shooters who use a double-lever device to seat a bullet into the bore ahead of the chamber before placing a case with some amount of BP in the chamber.  That's REALLY separated.  Not only does it not blow up, it aids in accuracy.  So how about it?  Have YOU ever personally had or witnessed a muzzle loading rifle blow up (split the barrel) when for sure loaded with black powder and the only problem being the separation of the powder and the ball?  Physics says that it shouldn't happen.  The pressure curve would actually be slower as the burning gas expands into the available space before beginning to push the ball out of the bore.  The most rapid rise in pressure happens when the powder is confined in a smaller space.  What say ye?

Storm

[greggholmes]

I bulged a barrel.  TC Hawkens .50 cal. Bulged right under the rear sights.. short start.

[Catchem]

I'm no expert.

I understand that:
If you want to bulge or ring your barrel, keep an airspace between the powder and the ball.
If you want to blow up your barrel, and maybe bystanders and yourself, put down 2 balls with an airspace between the balls.

That's why its recommended to always mark where your ramrod it rests on your charge of powder and the ball.

[Roaddog]

I was told if the powder in a cartidg isn't fild so it would not be comprest you best put filler in, cream of wheat or cornmeal. You whant it to be comprest.

[Stormrider51]

And yet I repeatedly fired sub-MOA groups with cartridges that were not compressed.  When I tried fillers the group sizes increased.  The target in the photo was fired from the bench at 100 yards during sight-in and load development.  I fired a first shot and could see it high left.  I fired a second shot and thought I'm missed the target entirely but when I walked up it turned out to be two bullets almost in one hole.  I dialed the sight over to the right and then decided to fire five shots with no sight changes.  That's the ragged hole high and slightly right.  I dialed the sight back and down and fired the last shot which hit almost perfectly dead center.  That was the last round I had of that load.  I tried other loads including fillers, wads, etc and none were quite as accurate.

Storm

[Roaddog]

Was there any sine of extensiv pressur sines on the empty cartriges?

[Stormrider51]

No, and there were no signs that gas was blowing back along the case.  I used that load for several years until I foolishly sold the gun.

So far we have a personally observed case of a ringed barrel.  Anyone else?

Storm

[Rev]

My friend Doug  short started a ball but did not seat it. The barrel bulged about 6" from the end. It is now a canoe gun...

[sse]

I have done this a few times and have doubled balled at least once, with no effect on the barrel.

[Rev]

BTW, it was a .62 caliber smoothbore...

[greyhunter]

Interesting points Storm, but a cartridge of malleable brass expands to fill the breech on a cartridge rifle as the bullet is entering the barrel. In a muzzie, that pressure would go directly to the barrel. In a smooth bore(thin) barrel, I can see why it is damaged. An octagon heavy barrel rifle may be able to absorb more. I dunno, I won't be doin it on purpose myself! I do know that when one double patches and has to pound the ball down onto the charge it will kick mightily. Or so I've been, ahem, told...........................

[Stormrider51]

I hope everyone understands that I'm just seeking data.  Well, and maybe trying to stimulate some activity on the forum!  The TMA has great potential and yet seems to have difficulty generating activity on its most visible part, this forum.  I note that the TMA Raffle seems to be in trouble this year.  I don't know why, but it is and that's a bad sign.

Back to the subject at hand.  Just like any pursuit, muzzleloading has its "truths" that "everybody knows" but for which there is little if any hard data.  I enjoy challenging those sacred cows.  If YOU didn't have it happen to YOU or if YOU didn't directly observe the event AND the elements contributing to it, then it's not hard data.  It is, at best, a second-hand story.  I mean no offense to anyone but that's the truth.  A few decades ago a gent named Sam Fadala tried to blow up a muzzleloader barrel and published his findings.  He had to really get extreme to accomplish his goal.  If I remember correctly, blowing up a muzzleloader required multiple balls separated from the charge AND the use of smokeless powder.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.  I'm curious to learn if there's anyone with real evidence to the contrary.

Storm

[huntinguy]

It is called safety factor.

Modern barrels, most, have been overly engineered. That is not to say that a barrel will not fail.

I was doing a little investigating of barrel steels and found this: http://www.caywoodguns.com/gun%20barrel%20steel.htm

There are a lot of variables.

There are always the exceptions to the rule.