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Author Topic: English Game Gun Project  (Read 10172 times)

Offline gunmaker

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Re: English Game Gun Project
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2013, 07:44:30 PM »
Well the long wait for the Rayl custom barrel has ended.  It showed up today.  So I'm back on this project.  Here's a pic of bbl. in wood.   Stay tuned.    Tom

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Offline Roaddog

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Re: English Game Gun Project
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2013, 06:52:11 AM »
:hairy
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Offline Uncle Russ

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Re: English Game Gun Project
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2013, 12:37:40 PM »
Quote from: "gunmaker"
Well the long wait for the Rayl custom barrel has ended.  It showed up today.  So I'm back on this project.  Here's a pic of bbl. in wood.   Stay tuned.    Tom


Tom, a little something to think about, when you get a chance.....
I've got a 32" 1:28 GM .50 barrel, in fact it's one of the barrels for that same stock you now have, and I assure you that the old wives tale about NOT being able to shoot RB in that fast twist is nothing short of just old tales that this sport is plagued with.

There is a one fly in the ointment though, and that is the amount of powder you use before the grouping goes south on it, but that is also true with a lot of other barrels, be they 1:28 / 1:48 / 1:62 / or 1:78.....

In a .50 T/C 1:48 barrel 110gr FFFg and more, will open the group considerably using a round ball and patch.
In the .50  GM 1:28 barrel, the group starts to open at about 95 / 100gr FFFg.
Does that 10 -15gr difference really make a difference, especially when you consider dwell time on a 1:28 is longer than that on a 1:48? (of course such things are measured in mili micro seconds and used to support a theory, not necessarily to mean a whole lot outside of theory or provide anything visual.)

Still yet....Is it possible the 1:28 could be seen as more efficient than a 1:48 and the other rates?

There is this theory on "skipping"... whereas a hot load will push the ball and patch so fast it will "skip" on the grooves and create galling, or leading of the bore, and then when ignored the grooves get all leaded up and the patch can't get stuffed into the grooves to hold the ball properly and impart the proper spin on it.

I'm not sure I buy into all of that...
It makes some sense, some times, but the problem is you can't duplicate the process at will....not just by dumping more powder in, firing a shot or two, dropping a bore light down and see galling.
I suppose if you ignored proper cleaning of the barrel long enough, overtime that scenario could take place, and then grow exponentially to a point you would have a smooth bore, but you could do that no matter which twist you're using, and that makes me think that the old saying of "every gun barrel is a science within itself" totally out weighs the theory of "skipping".

Now the beauty of a 1:28 twist, if you can say such a thing, is the fact that it does better stabilize a conical bullet, or a solid base Minie, much better than a slower twist.
Our NSSA guys shoot some amazing groups with hollow base Minie-Ball even out to 150 yds.....and they do it with a s-l-o-w twist, without leading.

Other than that, a person could shoot a 1:28  for years using a round ball and never know the difference until someone told him "you can't do that in a fast twist".

Uncle Russ...
It's the many things we don't do that totally sets us apart.
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Offline Riley/MN

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Re: English Game Gun Project
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2013, 01:29:41 PM »
Quote from: "RussB"
There is this theory on "skipping"... whereas a hot load will push the ball and patch so fast it will "skip" on the grooves and create galling, or leading of the bore, and then when ignored the grooves get all leaded up and the patch can't get stuffed into the grooves to hold the ball properly and impart the proper spin on it.

I'm not sure I buy into all of that...
It makes some sense, some times, but the problem is you can't duplicate the process at will....not just by dumping more powder in, firing a shot or two, dropping a bore light down and see galling.
I suppose if you ignored proper cleaning of the barrel long enough, overtime that scenario could take place, and then grow exponentially to a point you would have a smooth bore, but you could do that no matter which twist you're using, and that makes me think that the old saying of "every gun barrel is a science within itself" totally out weighs the theory of "skipping".

Not to be an advocate for that nasty guy  :evil: - cuz he don't need one.... but ever since I first heard this theory I've had problems with it as pertaining to PRB. How can a ball inside of a patch be leading the barrel? As far as skipping, I can see that, and lead build up with a conical? Sure, but lead in the bore with a PRB just don't make no sense to me.....
~Riley
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Offline gunmaker

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Re: English Game Gun Project
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2013, 04:19:55 PM »
I think I'm getting a HEADACHE.......
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Online Hank in WV

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Re: English Game Gun Project
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2013, 05:03:31 PM »
What Riley said.
Hank in WV
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Offline Captchee

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Re: English Game Gun Project
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2013, 06:13:12 PM »
Well  for me a 435 grain conical in my 1 in 70 twist , 42 inch barrel works well . But I also shoot 110grains of 3 F to get it to do so  and its still not as accurate  as a RB pushed with 80 grains . But its more then accurate enough for a hunting load
 As to  the question of how a  ball that’s within a patch , can lead a barrel .
Well  the thing is , often times if you  pick up the patches , you will find them torn if not shredded . If the patch is in fact intact  then it wont lead the rifling .
 Now another thing . a lot of times I have found that  balls that have  torn patchs , will often have  rifling engraved on them . First time I saw this was with  a patched RB fired through a 1 in 32 twist barrel  that was loaded with 100 grains of 3F .
 During that time I would fire a ball into the end of a hay bail so as to judge penitration at different distances . couldn’t figure out for the life of  me how the ball was being engraved . Then we started looking for patchs . When we found them they were pretty much wads of  fabric with a big hole in the center

Offline gunmaker

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Re: English Game Gun Project
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2013, 08:34:23 PM »
Well I've been busy this week, got her mostly done up.  Near final sand/finish--hoping for late this week.











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Offline Sir Michael

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Re: English Game Gun Project
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2013, 07:40:00 PM »
Got a question.  In the photo showing a close up the lock plate it appears that you have removed the wood from the front of the nipple snail forward to the front edge of the lock plate down to the top of the lock plate.  I don't recall seeing this type of design.  Am I missing something or is it just the view that makes it look that way?
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Offline gunmaker

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Re: English Game Gun Project
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2013, 09:47:55 PM »
This is something you'll see on English guns.  Called a "Bar" lock, a piece of steel filed to look nice is soldered to the side of the barrel.  supposed to stop cap flash from burning the wood there. Like this



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Offline Sir Michael

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Re: English Game Gun Project
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2013, 02:07:09 PM »
I see now what you are doing.  Interesting.  After reading your explanation I checked the WEB and found a rifle designed this way on Lewis Drake.  Are you going to put a similar bar on the opposite side of the barrel to match?
Sir Michael
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Offline gunmaker

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Re: English Game Gun Project
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2013, 02:09:18 PM »
No, not on a single barrel rifle......
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Offline Sir Michael

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Re: English Game Gun Project
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2013, 07:50:07 PM »
From this example, it would not be inappropriate but that is your call and your rifle.  Even on one side it is still way cool.

Lewis Drake and Associates |  - Smith, London- .62 Cal. Damascus Muzzle Loader, ca. 1817-20
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Offline gunmaker

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Re: English Game Gun Project
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2013, 08:09:47 PM »
That is a fine rifle, the set triggers are quite rare on "Brit" guns.....
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Offline Captchee

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Re: English Game Gun Project
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2013, 07:52:09 AM »
a double drip rail i ihave only seen a couple times . though i would say that english sporting rifles are not my  best study topic .
 i have seen more then a few double set models and more then a few single sets