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Author Topic: Would it raise any eye brows?  (Read 1432 times)

Offline KHickam

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Re: Would it raise any eye brows?
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2013, 11:19:45 PM »
I like my Blue Ridge rifle - very accurate gun - and the front heavy barrel is steadier than my swamped barrel custom
"But I swear, a woman's breast is the hardest rock that the Almighty ever made on this earth, and I can find no sign on it."  Bear Claw Chris Lapp

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Offline Captchee

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Re: Would it raise any eye brows?
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2013, 09:21:39 AM »
Quote from: "rfd"
reliable long guns that are cost effective will outsell the one-offs simply due to mass public appeal.  

same for back in the day, same for today.

   Well yes and no ,
True mass production as we know it today , did not exist tell into the mid 19th century .
 What did exist was a one off type of mass production  where a company would have a large  labor force  OR would have guilds producing  components that would later be assembled . But all to often that also included the problem of parts not being interchangeable .
 Take  for example  what is limped into being called the NW Trade gun today .
 Very large quantities were produced for the trade market here in the Americas’  .
 Depending on the maker  some were junk to the point they would not work “poor reliability “.  what happened was in the process of trying to make the gun cheaper and  increase production , they took a gun that was  of poor quality to start with and made it  even worse .  William Johnson  talks about this issue in his diaries and letter from the NIB,. It got so bad that  he  and others  in the trade market , could not get rid of their stockpiles .. It should also be noted that the actual cost of even those guns was very much  what one would pay today to have  one built

Another good example of quality and reliability   with large availability , yet little to no market  would be  the military arms .   We know from  many different diary accounts that  these  guns  were simply not wanted by  the largest % of civilians and Natives alike .

 On the flip side however ,   if we look at companies like Hall  who produced a reliable  long arm  and whose sales and production numbers  far exceeded  those of Hawkens , in the very same time frame. Do we still not have to ask , where are those guns are and why a company with  very small production numbers and sales , was so much more desirable .
 Infact to the point that the hall rifles are  near  lost in reference. Possibly to the point that if it wasn’t for the rifles ability to be converted to breech loading during the US civil war, we might be mentioning the Hall rifles as nothing more then a foot note .

 Flash forward to today  and our true mass production  which provides  interchangeable parts  within the model and maker .
 Back in the 1970’s there were  probably 20 or 30 different makers . Everyone from Sears to Ithica, Winchester and Remington was jumping on the band wagon.
  Even 20 years later  the companies that were left  were those who for the most part  were producing  what was consider a far less reliable gun . IE  Jukar  and Adesa
 TC was still   marketing their line . But their sales paled in comparison.
 CVA later drop production with Jukar  and  started having their rifles built in Adesa .
When Traditions  started up , they to took on contracts with Adesa . Thus you had both companies whish while slightly different are basically the same , with for the most part interchangeable parts .
  IMO those guns are  for the most part reliable  even though they are very cheaply made
 If however we look at the price , they are also entering or passed the relm of a much higher quality gun like TC  or  the Italian imports .
 Yet TC  is now  out of the  market . CVA is gone . You now have Traditions and Pedersoli  and its subs which produce the lyman , investment arms  lines ..
 Both of which have been IMO probably bolstered by  Smith & Wesson shutting down the  TC side lock lines  just as traditions sale  probably increases when CVA dropped out of the market .

Today  IMO the market has changed  in that more and more  the customer is looking  for a better quality  piece .  Back in the 1970’s when I  did my apprenticeship,  there were only a small few who were building  custom muzzleloaders .  Back then we were either buying parts through Dixie , reclaiming original parts or making our own .   But within a few years , we had  more options as quality makers started to pop up .
 Today . There is a whole behind the seens industry  with just about everything anyone would want or consider wanting .  The numbers of people building and marketing their rifles has  boomed  to the point its not hard to find someone who can build you  what your looking for .
 Price wise . Well im sorry  I hate to tell you this but the relative price has frankly not changed all that much in 300 years. For the most part a working serviceable custom rifle is still costing in the ball park of 1 months wages . No one is getting rich . For the most part  the vast majority of smiths and builders are still making  less then  minimum wage .
 Then you have those who are making maybe 14-16 an hour  if they are knowledgeable and fast . Those who are making going shop rate , which is a small hand full  are doing so  do to modern technologies so as to bolster their production .
 Those who build extremely high  dollar piece, who make  journeyman and master  wages  are few and far between  and their production numbers are very small .

So let me close this long post by saying this .
 Production wise , in the time frame we are talking about , the guns  that were mentioned , could not have been built and sold for the relative cost   they are today . So frankly that’s out  of consideration . They would have cost just as much as anything we today consider to be custom or semi custom  IE around one months wages for the common man .
 
 Would those  guns become popular  to the point they were recorded as anything more then a footnote . IMO probably not . I say that not because of quality  but because they would have been entering the market at a time of great and drastic change in the firearms industry

Online RobD

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Re: Would it raise any eye brows?
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2013, 04:45:43 PM »
re: "Production wise , in the time frame we are talking about , the guns that were mentioned , could not have been built and sold for the relative cost they are today . So frankly that’s out of consideration . They would have cost just as much as anything we today consider to be custom or semi custom IE around one months wages for the common man."

i agree.

while it's nice to be nostalgiac about some or all of the 18th/19th centuries, and make guesses about this topic's subject matter, i'm glad not to have lived those eras, and very thankful for the overall quality of long guns available these dayze, both mass produced and custom built.  works for me.

Offline 1911tex

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Re: Would it raise any eye brows?
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2013, 10:30:07 PM »
I believe that in the year 1820, no different than 2013...folks purchased a firearm because they needed to replace one that was becoming problematic, caught his eye, or wanted a new one to start an new venture... or wanted one like so-and-so has, who they respected and recomended..in most cases, not so much the actual makers name, but the specifics or build (bbl/caliber/action/length/stock) type.  He would go to several of the local gunmakers and see what was available withing the specs that were recommended.  If one of todays factory models was sitting on the shelf and met the specs, and the price was affordable....sold!  Otherwise , he would trade or buy a used one meeting the requirements or have one made if he could afford it and had the time to wait.  People dont change, only the time in history changes.  There were hundreds of rifle builders all across the country then as now, some more popular (due to word of mouth recomendations), but I dont think Kit Carson, William B. Travis, or D. Crockett when on the move, cared the least who built his rifle, as long as it met his specifications for its intended use, it was accurate and affordable, and was available for purchase when needed... and when they handled it, it felt good in their hands.  I think most likely the folks back then did not go through rifles like we go through cars or tv sets like today...if they saw something that caught their eye or had a need...they bought a replacement, new or used.  I dont believe most those early frontier folks had the discretonary funds for multiple guns like some of us have today, so that was definately a limitation.  I dont think there were many very rich frontiersmen...They were mostly on the move and had limited ability to pack an armory, like what we take for granted today.  Earlier, Meriwether Lewis was a notible exception...he had T. Jeffersons unlimited government expense account to purchase his arms, and purchased the best and most that could be carried conveniently for the voyage.  Just my thoughts.

Offline Captchee

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Re: Would it raise any eye brows?
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2013, 11:15:02 PM »
actually if i recall from my readings , lewis  had harpers ferry build  according to a specification

 both he and Clark also carried  their personal rifles which were one off ,custom rifles

Offline KHickam

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Re: Would it raise any eye brows?
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2013, 07:51:00 AM »
Thanks for the input CaptChee - awesome thoughts everyone
"But I swear, a woman's breast is the hardest rock that the Almighty ever made on this earth, and I can find no sign on it."  Bear Claw Chris Lapp

TMA Member #641 Expires 09/11/2012