Tell me about my rifle?

[Hank in WV]

The cool thing about my surname is that it's fairly unusual, making it fairly simple to trace back. It is in fact so unusual that it's (almost) a given that anyone with that name, especially from the period, is a relative. In this case I was able to trace this person back to my GGGG Grandfather.  

While "Detached" is an unusual surname, it certainly doesn't sound Scotch or Irish.

[Detached]

 While "Detached" is an unusual surname, it certainly doesn't sound Scotch or Irish.  

Truth is I wanted to use Reload but someone already had it. The only thing I could think of on short notice was Detached, coming from the Kentucky Detached Militia, my "Cousin's" (tongue-in-cheek) unit. He served under Colonel Slaughter, (fitting name) who would later bcome governor of Kentucky.

[greggholmes]

The article says the southern mountain rifle was used in every conflict from 1774 to 1860s. The oldest "dated" was 1815.

[Detached]

The article says the southern mountain rifle was used in every conflict from 1774 to 1860s. The oldest "dated" was 1815.

Yes, and admittedly the last rifle in the picture, the upper East Tennessee rifle also has my interest. It has fantastic lines.

[Captchee]

i would agree with Mario  in that the southern rifle as many of us think of it today , is a rather later style of rifle . this however doesn’t mean that  there were not southern rifles . factually there were . but they just had not came into their own distinct  style  that  most readily recognize today .

 if you look at the rifle that Kemper produced  its not hard to pick out the Lancaster styling’s . but its also not hard to see that things were changing .  IE deeper comb nose relief , slimming and less rounded mortises  but and trigger guard changes .
Also one should  be aware that just because a person was born in a given area , it doesn’t really mean that a gun they carried would have been from that area . Especially if  the family had migrated from somewhere else . There are  still family ties and pass downs to consider . It takes often times a couple generations for there to be a drastic change  in even the simplest of family  heritage . Which also includes the tools and how those tools were used . Before there is a real noticeable change .

 that’s what Kemper was actually emulating with his rifle  in that there was a change happening , it just wasn’t as instantaneous as a lot of folks think .
 I also think one should not fall for the idea that POOR means Poor . It didn’t then and it doesn’t now .
 If anything there IMO was an even greater since of family respect then there most certainly is today .
So while an item like a rifle , might have been more simply , that doesn’t mean it was plain and without decoration

 But anyway . My advise to you is this . Spend a little more time looking at documented rifles  from people who lived in that area  search out the rifles or depictions of the known rifles from the battle.  Then use and common average of what you find .   Your looking at having an investment in your rifle  do your best to gather as much info as you can .
 My bet however is that  when all is said and done your going to  end up being real close to a Lancaster  that’s slimmed way down and has the transitional  appearance like Kempers . If not a rifle that’s  along the lines of something even older

[RobD]

without any substantial evidence what firearm yer kin shouldered, honestly, it could literally be anything, even a brown bess, who can say for sure?  literally any period flinter *could* be representative.  however, odds are probably a bit more in favor of a southern flavored rifle in the .40 to .50 caliber.  it's all a guess.  also, do consider that you'll be firing such a weapon, not yer long departed relative, so i'd lean towards a firearm that'd be more pleasing to you in every manner.  

i was in the "poor boy" long gun dilemma last year and that finally got sussed out and materialized as a carolina rifle.  this is by far the best long gun i've ever shot or owned and will be handed down to my grandson.  take yer time, think it all over well.  

[Detached]

Also one should  be aware that just because a person was born in a given area , it doesn’t really mean that a gun they carried would have been from that area . Especially if  the family had migrated from somewhere else . There are  still family ties and pass downs to consider . It takes often times a couple generations for there to be a drastic change  in even the simplest of family  heritage . Which also includes the tools and how those tools were used . Before there is a real noticeable change .

without any substantial evidence what firearm yer kin shouldered, honestly, it could literally be anything, even a brown bess, who can say for sure? literally any period flinter *could* be representative.

Well gents, as stated in one of my previous posts:

"It is at the very least no worse a choice than any other rifle of the period."

I'm fully aware that I have no idea what he carried and will most likely never know.

[RobD]

Also one should  be aware that just because a person was born in a given area , it doesn’t really mean that a gun they carried would have been from that area . Especially if  the family had migrated from somewhere else . There are  still family ties and pass downs to consider . It takes often times a couple generations for there to be a drastic change  in even the simplest of family  heritage . Which also includes the tools and how those tools were used . Before there is a real noticeable change .

without any substantial evidence what firearm yer kin shouldered, honestly, it could literally be anything, even a brown bess, who can say for sure? literally any period flinter *could* be representative.

Well gents, as stated in one of my previous posts:

"It is at the very least no worse a choice than any other rifle of the period."

I'm fully aware that I have no idea what he carried and will most likely never know.

how cool is that?!  lotsa great choices abound and all will be winners!  

[mario]

The article says the southern mountain rifle was used in every conflict from 1774 to 1860s. The oldest "dated" was 1815.

I can write an article saying the AK47 was used in every conflict from the Seminole Wars to present day. But if the earliest "dated" AK47 is from 1947, than my statement is wrong until proven otherwise. Best case scenario, it's a guess.

I see mine with a patchbox, but something more plain. No additonal inlays with the possible exception of the side plate, and no carving. It will be mounted in brass, and most likely browned. It will have a flamed maple stock, but probably a bit more 'working man' than the one made for the auction. It will have a swamped barrel just because I want one, and will be in .45 caliber. The most important thing is that it maintains the beautiful, graceful flowing lines that the original rifle exhibits.

What do you all think? Sound acceptable?

IMHO, even a rifle made for a farmer of the time would have carving. Maybe not very extensive, but it'd be there. Again, the example of the trade guns. Cheapest guns around, but even they had some carving.



Mario

[greggholmes]

The article says the southern mountain rifle was used in every conflict from 1774 to 1860s. The oldest "dated" was 1815.

I can write an article saying the AK47 was used in every conflict from the Seminole Wars to present day. But if the earliest "dated" AK47 is from 1947, than my statement is wrong until proven otherwise. Best case scenario, it's a guess.

I see mine with a patchbox, but something more plain. No additonal inlays with the possible exception of the side plate, and no carving. It will be mounted in brass, and most likely browned. It will have a flamed maple stock, but probably a bit more 'working man' than the one made for the auction. It will have a swamped barrel just because I want one, and will be in .45 caliber. The most important thing is that it maintains the beautiful, graceful flowing lines that the original rifle exhibits.

What do you all think? Sound acceptable?

IMHO, even a rifle made for a farmer of the time would have carving. Maybe not very extensive, but it'd be there. Again, the example of the trade guns. Cheapest guns around, but even they had some carving.



Mario

you didn't read the article.

"Baxter Bean John Bull and a few other builders were prone to inlet a silver plate into the barrel onto which the name of the owner, the maker and occasionally, a date was inscribed. The earliest known of these dated southern rifles is 1815"

he doesn't say the southern rifle only dates to 1815, only the oldest ones by these makers.

[Captchee]

Maybe Im reading it a little different  but when I read southern rifle im  getting the idea of a Southern  made rifle . Not so much the later rifles that are commonly thought of today .
 Im also thinking that’s what Mario is also saying ..

 But lets say  im off base with that  and we used the 1815 date .  It still makes such a rifle rare even for that time .   Would that not then raise the question of how a  poor farmer managed to come up with it ?
 This is one of the problems we run into when  we use an earliest known  date for an item .
A) the  date is fluid as  there could be some earlier OR the actual  maker date could be later  which is often the case after pier review.
B) why the sudden drastic divergence ways from  common  style ??
 While the 1815 date  could be  acceptable  for a possible early start date a period of faltering in the quality of northern made rifles , thus a drastic decline  in numbers of gunsmiths , it still would be rather  and could also be a stretch .

This is why so many period people base their information on a common item for a time vs. a rare  for a given date .

Detached
 Have you  dug deep enough in your family history to possibly start collecting late 19th century photos ?
 Or  following the persons   direct family line
 The reason I ask this is because often time such items as guns were passed down generation to generation. You may just find a photo of the rifle  in another family members hand OR even the case were another family member may actually still own that rifle , know of it  or had heard of it  . Thus possibly giving you a way to trace it , find it  or at least give you some idea of what it was . You might just get lucky

[Detached]

Detached
 Have you  dug deep enough in your family history to possibly start collecting late 19th century photos ?
 Or  following the persons   direct family line
 The reason I ask this is because often time such items as guns were passed down generation to generation. You may just find a photo of the rifle  in another family members hand OR even the case were another family member may actually still own that rifle , know of it  or had heard of it  . Thus possibly giving you a way to trace it , find it  or at least give you some idea of what it was . You might just get lucky

Man, I had a whole response typed up and submitted then realized the bulk of captchee's post was directed at the rifles posted by greggholmes.

At any rate, I am looking for pictures. I do have the family tree nailed down, have found a few pics, mostly form the Civil War.

What's the worst that could happen? I'll build the rifle, and then if I find a pic in a few years and learn i was totally wrong, I'd just have to build another!

[RobD]

...
For all I know he used the same gun his father did in the Revolutionary War, or maybe he bought a brand new rifle before he left, or maybe his stock was broken and he picked up a musket on the way, eh? There is no way to cover all of the contingencies.
...

exactly.  you basically have carte blanche to pick most any rifle from at least as far back as the F&I and then forward.  yer kin could easily have used most anyone's long gun ... you've researched and have no idea nor clue, so ... dream up a rifle, stick with yer choice, get it solidified into wood 'n' metal, then show it to us all.  way cool!

[Detached]

...
For all I know he used the same gun his father did in the Revolutionary War, or maybe he bought a brand new rifle before he left, or maybe his stock was broken and he picked up a musket on the way, eh? There is no way to cover all of the contingencies.
...

exactly.  you basically have carte blanche to pick most any rifle from at least as far back as the F&I and then forward.  yer kin could easily have used most anyone's long gun ... you've researched and have no idea nor clue, so ... dream up a rifle, stick with yer choice, get it solidified into wood 'n' metal, then show it to us all.  way cool!

BTW, that's a beautiful rifle you posted. Carolina eh? My ancestor's father came from Carolina...

Oh...crap...

[RobD]

...
For all I know he used the same gun his father did in the Revolutionary War, or maybe he bought a brand new rifle before he left, or maybe his stock was broken and he picked up a musket on the way, eh? There is no way to cover all of the contingencies.
...

exactly.  you basically have carte blanche to pick most any rifle from at least as far back as the F&I and then forward.  yer kin could easily have used most anyone's long gun ... you've researched and have no idea nor clue, so ... dream up a rifle, stick with yer choice, get it solidified into wood 'n' metal, then show it to us all.  way cool!

BTW, that's a beautiful rifle you posted. Carolina eh? My ancestor's father came from Carolina...

Oh...crap...

my carolina flinter was made by tip curtis in tennessee - Highly Recommended!