The Stigma of "Made in India"

[Stormrider51]

I was just reading over some old posts of mine and came across one where I revealed my ignorance.  Not that I've never done that before or since but this case seems especially bad.  It had to do with an inquiry about a fusil made in India.  I was anything but complimentary of them based on one experience and a lot of internet hearsay.  I now know that this was unfair and some of what I said was untrue.  Now, some years later, I came back around to being curious about those guns and this time I did a little more background research before plunking down my money.  The research paid off.

All of this came to mind because I see some very welcome new names on the forum.  I'm sure some of them are experienced in muzzleloading but some are beginners.  Some may be looking for the cheapest way to try the hobby.  Some may be considering buying a gun that is made in India.  This time, instead of further clouding already muddy water I'd like to share some experiences and facts.

First, not every gun that is "Made in India" comes from the same company or shop.  Lumping all guns made in India together would be like saying all guns made in Italy come from the same factory.  And just like Italian guns, some are higher quality than others.  In the case of Indian guns you don't need to know the names of all the many makers and keep up with who is good and who turns out junk.  You need to learn who the reputable importers are.  They have sorted out the good makers for you.  I have experience with Middlesex Village Trading Co and recommend them but there are others such as Loyalist Arms who also have good reputations.  Do your research.  MVTC sold me with their guarantee.  The locks on their guns are guaranteed for life.  If it ever fails to spark because of a worn frizzen or if a spring ever breaks they will repair or replace it.  There is the proviso that the lock must not have been abused or altered but that's true for any manufacturer.  I'll also note that Lyman imports flintlock rifles that are known for sometimes having soft frizzens and other lock problems but nobody dumps on them.  In fact, they are often mentioned as good starter guns.

I've heard that the guns made in India aren't "authentic" or "historically correct".  Again, depending on the maker (importer), that's just not true and the authenticity extends beyond what you might imagine at first glance.  My Brown Bess contains no cast steel parts.  None.  Everything but the barrel is hand forged and filed to shape.  The barrel is the only thing that isn't made like they were in the 1700's.  Back then a flat piece of steel was heated and wound around a mandrel into a tube.  The seam was then heat welded closed.  The Indian barrels are made the same way all modern makers do, from seamless steel tubing.  They're much stronger than the originals and safer.  But back to that hand forged lock.  The one on my Bess had a couple of problems when I got it.  Okay, three problems.  One, the trigger pull was STOUT!  Oh, I could get the cock (hammer) to fall but it took a lot of effort.  I'll also admit that I'm accustomed to using rifles with double-set triggers.  But regardless, the pull was too hard for good shooting.  The second problem was related to the first.  Even when I got the hammer to drop the sear would often fall into the half-cock notch.  This happened because I wouldn't hold the diamond-crushing pressure on the trigger long enough.  Third problem, also partially related to the first, the cock would sometimes fail to kick the frizzen completely open.  This was a combination of the tumbler dragging on the sear and slowing the cock plus a frizzen spring that was dragging on the lock plate.  I could have contacted MVTC and sent the lock back to them for repair/tuning.  On the other hand, having been a gunsmith for more than 40 years must have some value.  It's not like I hadn't seen these problems before and seen them on locks from well thought of companies.  I chose to decrease the sear spring strength by careful filing.  Then I polished all the lock parts using stones.  That lock has not failed to fire since that time.  My sole remaining complaint was the fit of the pan to the frizzen.  If I primed the gun and stood it upright the priming would make its way out the rear of the pan through a gap.  That was a problem I didn't have a ready fix for so I contacted Peter Plunkett at MVTC.  He asked if I was priming the pan with FFg.   Ummmm.....no, I'm using FFFFg like I have in every flinter I've owned.  He suggested I try FFg and sent me a warranty repair form just in case.  So I tried FFg in the pan.  I pointed Bess upward, downward, sideways, and rudely shook her.  The FFg stayed in the pan.  Okay, but this coarse powder is going to make for slower ignition.  I wish I could claim even that small victory for my prejudice but the truth is that if there is an increased delay in ignition I can't detect it subjectively.

With the lock working properly, I sat down to do some accuracy testing.  I reported the results over on the Smoothbore forum under "Bess Is On The Way!"  Suffice to say here that Bess surprised me.  She's a shooter.

I'm going to close this with one more point.  "India guns blow up!"  As I pointed out earlier, not all guns made in India are equal.  There are claims that the Indian guns are shipped without the vent being drilled because they are wallhangers and not intended to be fired.  No, the fact is that muzzleloaders are considered firearms in that country and as such would be subject to the very restrictive laws and regulations in place.  Those laws have become even more restrictive as of 2014.  Shipping without the vent hole being drilled avoids the restrictions and tariffs.  Again, stick with the good importers.  But the fact is that ANY gun can be blown up.  There were a rash of exploding muzzleloaders back during the resurgence of interest in muzzleloading guns in the 1970's.  There was a flood of muzzleloading guns being imported from places like Italy and Spain.  There were a lot of bad stories told about them.  Or someone would find great-grandad's old gun in the attic and decide to shoot it.  I saw one old gun that burst its barrel.  It was obvious from the amount of 100+ year old rust and erosion in the breech area that the gun should have never been fired.  There was a common mis-conception that you couldn't pour enough black powder down a barrel to blow it up.  A few lunkheads ignored the "BLACK POWDER ONLY!" stamped into the barrel and dumped in a little smokeless instead.  In much more recent times CVA imported inline muzzleloaders that had breech plug problems.  A number of them failed to stay put with bad results for the shooters.   Will My CVA Muzzleloader Blow Up?
Could I blow up my Bess?  Sure I could, but it's no more likely to happen than it has been with any other muzzleloader I've ever owned and the cause wouldn't be the gun, it would be me.  I could overload it.  I could allow it to rust inside until the barrel is dangerously weak.  I could do something stupid.

So to all the newcomers out there, Welcome!  If you have the money I recommend that you buy a custom gun from one of the reputable makers.  We have some right here in the TMA.  You won't be sorry.  But if you aren't sure about this hobby or simply don't have the money to afford a custom and don't mind a smoothbore, don't shy away from the guns "Made in India".  Stick with the reputable importers and you will be fine.  Yes, they may need a little tuning but so may a Lyman GPR flinter.  And if your taste runs to something like the Brown Bess as a do-everything gun that will shoot ball or shot, think about this.  You can spend $1,300 for that Pedersoli Brown Bess that truly isn't "authentic" or "historically correct" (although it is generally accepted as such by re-enactment groups) or you can spend half that much for one from India.  Most of us were drawn to this hobby because we want to do things the "old way".  For me at least, having a gun that contains no cast parts and not made using modern machinery adds to that attraction.

Have fun and be safe,
Storm

[Hanshi]

  Great post, Stormrider.

[Uncle Russ]

Very good Storm!  
I completely and totally agree with everything you said.

FWIW; When you started your post you mentioned personal experience and lots of Internet hearsay, and that my friend is an ongoing problem.... IMHO.

It is not as bad today as it was, say, 12 / 15 years ago, but it is still bad enough.
In the early days there was what is sometimes referred to as, "old wives tales" insofar as the proper witches brew for lube, facing East when loading yer powder because the sitting fox on Trade Guns always faced East , always place the sprue on the ball down for 'best' ranging accuracy, and on, and on......thankfully most of this nonsense has gone by the wayside.

On the other hand there were many SME's (subject matter experts) on all guns and equipment when in fact they only owned one rifle and an assorted collection of gear. Still yet, whoever taught them to load and shoot that one rifle was indeed the greatest muzzle loading guru that ever lived, because the same SME's spouted the virtues of he said, they said, I read, he told Sam, Sam told John, and John told me, plus that's what my great grand-pa did.....so it's gotta be fact and you just have to accept it.

Thankfully, through folks like yourself, along with a few others, we have moved far beyond that.

I know for a fact that MVTC, Lyman, T/C, CVA, has brought us a host of good quality shooting rifles at very reasonable prices over the years.
I also know there was good, better, and best in the mix....some were good, others were better, and a few were, and still are, some of the best.

All this begs the question......was that sour apple actually sour? or was our perception of that apple soured from reading the ramblings of someone on the internet that became disillusioned because this reasonable priced gun he had just purchased didn't perform exactly as some others that he had read or heard about?

Personally, I still believe strongly in the old adage that, when it comes to shooting, every rifle is a science within itself, and every shooter must feel the very pulse of that particular rifle before it can ever fall into the class of a "best or better rifle".

If you're an old-timer, my advise is to read, and re-read, the internet postings, and then ask yourself if your own person experience bears out what you just read.
If you're a new-comer, read and ask questions...lots of questions. And then, with a little luck, folks like Stormrider51 will come along and do their best to help you separate real fact from total fiction.

Uncle Russ...

[Voyageur]

I'm not one to get myself embroiled in a dispute regarding anyone elses choice of firearms. However when it comes to India's (Kashmir, Pakistani et al) "firearms industry"I personally avoid the temptation to purchase. I purchased an "Indian" manufactured Matchlock Pistol for my collection about 8-10 years back. The stainless "tubing" they used as a "barrel" nicely polished etc. Well I shoot everything I buy and I was going to do so with this reproduction. I set up a test by securing the gun securely to an old tire and proceed to testing the gun. With a small load to begin with ~55gr of FFFG--pulled the 25 foot lanyard and the gun went off---result was  the Barrel (tube) was split right down the center. One shot w. a small load for the barrel size = 65.0 calibre ball. I am still looking for the picture, it's got to be hidden somewhere in my new compooter. So IMHO I wouldn't personally waste a dime on Indian imports. I don't play games with my life. However, that being said, I  fully support anyone else's pleasure and ability to purchase said firearms and use them with the caveat that they test these barrels before you put it to your cheek and pull that trigger. Caveat Emptor   "Doc"

[Thunder Bay]

GREAT post stormrider. I am in the final stages of saving up enough money to buy my first Firelock and I indeed plan on purchasing it from MVTC. I am looking very hard at the Ranger Bess. I have been "into" muzzleloading since I was about 12/14 years old. I have always had an interest in the "old ways" and have shot front stuffers for many years but I have never shot a flinter.  I also have had a desire to do reenacting/trekking and have a huge interest in the French and Indian war period. So I joined up with Jaegers Battalion of Rogers Rangers and am slowly getting my kit together for that as well. I would LOVE a Pedersoli Bess Carbine but ya know what I never will as I have a family and bills to pay so I'm going with an Indian made Bess and I'm looking forward to carrying it not only in reenactment events but Trekking and hunting as well. I also wanted to add that I know a couple of guys that have MVTC muskets and they simply love them.  So anyway, enough of my rambling. Thank you for a nice refreshing post.

[Captchee]

Well said Stormrider .
 I actually did some  , lets say deeper then most , research into this subject a couple years back  when I   took a gun on trade  without recognizing the proof markings .
 There should still be a thread on here  about  those findings  as  well copies of e-mails , names of  officials in India as well as links to the actual laws of India governing firearms
 As you said there are many different makers  for Indian imports . However  I must  disagree with a couple of your points
  First the people of India are aloud to own firearms . Many do  but a lot simply cannot afford them.

 Second is about the vent hole issue..
I was very surprised to find out that India has Very  firearms manufacturing laws  and they do consider muzzleloaders to be firearms .  As such , any and ALL firearms that are capable of expelling a projectile  is  covered under  the  government laws . They cannot be exported without heavy tax . Can not be exported without passing IOF inspections  and proofing’s . can not be exported without having full records of the licensed  manufacture along with complete records showing   every part, its identification number  date of manufacture ……
 Now on top of that  private manufactures   cannot export firearms from India  .
 In other words its nothing like what we do here in this country .

 Please understand that im not suggesting anything about quality here . What im saying is that  these guns  are not classified as firearms  when they leave India . They  fall under the handicraft/curio etc so as to get around the Government laws regulating firearms  in that country .
As such  your are most certainly correct in your point about purchasing from a  retailer with a  good reputation  as they are the ones insuring that the guns they sell meet  some  level of quality .
 Also as Voyageur and you both pointed out , they are not all the same  in that some may never have been made to  be anything but a wall piece.  

As I sated earlier I did some research on this very subject . I did some looking on the forum and here is the link to that  information which i posted here back in 2009 . Myself I found it very interesting . again it covers actual India's my findings on the IOF  . what some of the laws are  and copies of actual e-mails from IOF officials .
SXS ID
http://traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12455&hilit=India+proof+mark

[Stormrider51]

Charlie,
Thank you for correcting my mistakes.  I may get all this straight one of these days.  Some of your information is somewhat out-dated, however.  While it is true that Indian citizens may technically own firearms the reality is that the requirements are now such that it is virtually impossible to do so.  It became even more difficult with the enactment of new laws that took effect this year.  Guns in India: Firearms, armed violence and gun law

Here's a news article that partially explains the back-story.  Police battle illegal arms, liquor ahead of India elections - Channel NewsAsia

The first website, and information from importers, is what I based my statements on.

Storm

[Captchee]

while the new laws may have taken effect , they just make it harder  to own , not  forbid the ownership .
 frankly however none of that maters to us . what does mater is the manufacturing laws . Since India does manufacture  for many militaries around the world , those manufacturing laws still are the base for their export. So no mater how you cut it these  guns  that are coming in without IOF markings , mean that they are not considered firearms by the Indian Government . A government which has  very strict laws concerning  firearms  . as such they are at  being seen as non fire able  curios, which are then being , for good or bad , converted here.

. That to me , begs the question of how long before the  government of India catches on. Which also leads to the question I could never get an answer to ;  does the government of  India then have a standard  of which they hold manufactures of curios to ?
IE basically is there a line of quality or completion that  cannot be crossed
 Myself I don’t know  and again never got an answer to that

[snake eyes]

Thanks to you all for your contribution to this. I for one have learned
a great deal on a subject I had never given much thought to.
Thanks!

snake-eyes

[Stormrider51]

The important thing is what I said earlier, do your research and stick with reputable importers.  I've been looking for a photo I took some years back when I still worked as a gunsmith.  Can't find the darned thing, of course.  Anyway, it was of a Made in India smoothbore that was brought in for me to check out and drill the vent.  I have no idea whether or not the breech plug was threaded because there was a narrow strip of steel welded across it and the breech of the barrel.  I refused to drill the vent and called the customer to come get his property.  Would it have held up to shooting?  I didn't know and didn't care to find out.  I carried a $1 million dollar liability insurance policy and had no desire to see a claim made on it.  

Storm

[Feltwad]

Be a purist and shoot nothing but an original made by a English maker  {A UK Patriot}
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door

[RobD]

a good topic post, thank you.

i will say this - IF you have the coins, go for the "best" and eschew the "probably questionable".  there's a solid reason why the best are simply The Best.

lacking fundage will always be the harder row to hoe; perfectly doable, but perhaps with more elbow grease ... and maybe requires spending some more loot, to boot.  

imho and ymmv.

[Stormrider51]

I'm going to leave this topic with a couple of thoughts.  I said in the beginning that if a person can afford a gun from one of the reputable makers in this country that this is the best way to go.  That is still my advice for anyone who can afford to do so.  I'll also point out that you can purchase a gun from good custom makers for about what a Pedersoli Brown Bess costs.  That's a no-brainer for me.  Go with the guy who is fighting to make a living and hangs his name on everything he builds.  I've seen too many Italian guns with problems.  But back to Made in India.

Much has been made of the fact that Indian guns are not "proofed" and there are no government standards on their manufacture.  I'm sorry folks but the exact same thing holds true of black powder guns made in the United States of America.  We have no black powder proof houses and there are no minimum standards or regulation on the manufacture of black powder muzzleloading firearms.  If there were, all of the small custom makers would go out of business because the cost of proving their guns were safe to fire would be prohibitive.  Just something to think about.

Storm

[greggholmes]

Let's just say I'm a cheap bas***d. I earn my money but I just can't justify spending more then needed.  I have my toys boat motorhome ect. Do I pay more then I think I should have? Sometimes. I won't pay 20k for a car, period. My daily commuter is a 23 yo. Metro that gets a REAL 52mpg. Why should I pay for a new car that gets half that? I'll pay what I think something is worth to me, otherwise I go somewhere else.
My India bess was the right price for me and acceptable quality. It shoots better then I do so win win.

[Feltwad]

Here in the UK the proofing of import guns rifles etc be it Muzzle loading or breech loading is law and must go through proof at Birmingham or London proof houses  .There are some foreign proofs that are accepted  but several are not .
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door