The Stigma of "Made in India"

[Captchee]

as i posted in a previous thread , India for guns is a good forum to start with  they are in fact the ones who put me in touch with the IOB . which by the way will respond to your e-mails . which  i have very seldom found to be the case with our own government . well unless you  count a  form letter an e-mail .

James Kelly tells of a brass blunderbuss with a breech plug that was an accident waiting to happen. And it did happen. Earlier I told of an India musket that I was asked to drill the vent on. The breech had a plug and a narrow strip of metal welded across it.

yep and lets not forget our   own .
Green mountain who just a hand full of years ago  miss drilled  their nipple holes in their  breech plugs .then  instead of providing a new plug , they just  inserted a heli coil and then sold them to folks as 100% .
Colerain .who no longer provides breeched barrels as  they couldn’t seem to learn how to  mate the plug properly .
 then you have Douglas.  who ended up closing up because of   lawsuits  do to failures  of barrels do to them using the extruding process. Yet today  people are paying outrageous prices for anything  that  the think might be a Douglas.
  How about  Remington.  who in the 1930’s , then again in 1950’s and 1960’s also had issues with their barrels  and not just muzzleloaders but also  center fire.

[mario]

From what I have heard of Indian muskets, including this thread & a report from a respected laboratory who may be a bit thin on muzzle loading knowledge, I prefer not to be on the same range with an Indian musket whilst being fired. Seamless tubing is not always seamless.

Sorry to use you as an example, but...

This is what I cannot understand. People are presented with FACT and OPINION (usually completely uninformed opinion) and they still side with OPINION.

What you basically stated is that the scientific examination of professionals who do this for a living is not sufficient evidence to counteract the OPINION of people who, in some cases, have never shot or handled said item.


As Cap mentioned, even non-tubing gun barrels CAN fail.

Jackie Brown has built 100s of guns and is well-known in re-enacting/ML circles. What does he use for barrels in his under $1000 guns? You guessed it. SEAMLESS TUBING.

Nobody talks smack about his guns.

Mario

[Captchee]

Mike brooks says he also has used seamless  on large bore rifles
 And the DOM tubing is rated at 85,000 PSI . which is probably a whole lot greater then what  original forged iron barrels would have been
BUT , on top of that  that Mario
 But  if I recall  one of the  circumstances where and India made gun blew  while using blank loads , reported just the opposite.
IE when the gun was inspected by HP White, and Dr. William Bruchey ,they report wasn’t that the  material of the barrel was NOT  defective and that the barrel burst from an obstruction .
 That however wasn’t what many folks wanted to hear .

 Hel Don Getz says he uses 12L14  and in fact often points that very thing out when people start in about   it being to soft to make a good barrel .

 The gun barrels here in the US ?  Where exactly would that steel come from ? South America , china ??. Sure doesn’t come from here

[Tommy Bruce]

Ken Netting also uses seemless tubing on his barrels.  Ken's built well over 500 guns and I trust his word better than anyone else in the business.

[James Kelly]

I did not know that current muzzle loading barrel makers use tubing. Some modern shotgun makers start with 1137Mod (I do not know what the "mod" means) tubing, modern rifle makers start with solid bar. By the way, seamless and DOM are two different things. DOM is tube welded from strip, then cold Drawn Over a Mandrel to get a smooth I.D. Seamless tube starts as a hot steel billet which is pierced and driven over a piercing tool to make a rough tube. This tube is then hot and cold processed to finished size.

I have a little personal experience with seamless tubing, steel and otherwise. First, some heavy wall 1018 seamless tubing (crack on ID, discovered by the line of cutting fluid that showed up while a pistol barrel was being turned) small diameter 4130 seamless (distortion when swamped with a file, residual stress. All my fault see "The Shoemaker's Children go Barefoot") and two special heat resistant alloys in seamless tube, both with seams on the I.D.; 310 (25%chromium 20%nickel) and RA85H (18%chromium 15%nickel 3-1/2%silicon).

[sse]

I did not know that current muzzle loading barrel makers use tubing. Some modern shotgun makers start with 1137Mod (I do not know what the "mod" means) tubing, modern rifle makers start with solid bar. By the way, seamless and DOM are two different things. DOM is tube welded from strip, then cold Drawn Over a Mandrel to get a smooth I.D. Seamless tube starts as a hot steel billet which is pierced and driven over a piercing tool to make a rough tube. This tube is then hot and cold processed to finished size.

I have a little personal experience with seamless tubing, steel and otherwise. First, some heavy wall 1018 seamless tubing (crack on ID, discovered by the line of cutting fluid that showed up while a pistol barrel was being turned) small diameter 4130 seamless (distortion when swamped with a file, residual stress. All my fault see "The Shoemaker's Children go Barefoot") and two special heat resistant alloys in seamless tube, both with seams on the I.D.; 310 (25%chromium 20%nickel) and RA85H (18%chromium 15%nickel 3-1/2%silicon).

that's greek to me...

[James Kelly]

"Seamless tubing" may have seams, or cracks running the long way of the tube.

These cracks are open to the I.D., to the bore. Which means they are damn hard to find without destroying the tube.

These seams/cracks may occur in mild steel tubing, or in $10/pound high nickel alloys, essentially stainless on steroids.

"DOM" tubing, for what it is worth, is welded tubing, not seamless.

Read The Caplock Rifle, by Ned Roberts, to see his opinions on barrels bored from solid versus made from tube.