Powder / patch thickness used in 1800's

[Thunderhawk1828]

I have 2 questions about loading:

1) is there any documentation that states what "F" powder was used during the Fur trade era? Believe they only carried 1 horn so whatever the "F" was it was used for barrell and prime.

2) any record of what patch thickness was used? Or did they really not care so much as they used a smaller ball for ease of loading (that is maybe used a .495 ball in a 54 cal, etc).

I am using a .15 patch with a 530 ball with no problem - but was curious.

Thanks.

Thunderhawk1828

[mario]

I have 2 questions about loading:

1) is there any documentation that states what "F" powder was used during the Fur trade era? Believe they only carried 1 horn so whatever the "F" was it was used for barrell and prime.

In the 18th century, there are distinctions made between powder and "rifle powder". Rifle powder being a bit finer than that used in muskets/fowling pieces.

2) any record of what patch thickness was used? Or did they really not care so much as they used a smaller ball for ease of loading (that is maybe used a .495 ball in a 54 cal, etc).

Never come across any. They used what they had. Shooters didn't go around with digital calipers in those days.  


Mario

[Rocklock]

I wasn't there and I don't know of any documentation. I believe that then just as now it all depended on circumstances:  who, what, when and where. Patch material probably varied with availability. In very isolated locations leather may have been more common. Only used than line.  Another example would be someone living on the frontier might have one load, patch and ball combination for defense/hunting and another for accuracy at a beef or turkey  shoot.  I load a tight ball and patch at the start of a hunt or season and carry an easier loading one for succeeding loads.

Bottom line is that there were many different combinations.
TC

[One Shot]

I believe that the patch ball fit was somewhat loose as there is documentation that they thumbed their balls into the muzzle then rammed it down. I agree with Mario that they most likely would have used what suitable material was available to them at the time.

As far as I know or remember short starters came into use somewhere around the mid 1800s when shooting competitions became more popular and accuracy was being looked for that demanded a tighter ball patch fit. Short starters, particularly on the battle lines or in a defense against hostiles would slow you down somewhat.

[Dewey]

Barking off Squirrels is delightful sport, and in my opinion requires a greater degree of accuracy than any other. I first witnessed this manner of procuring Squirrels whilst near the town of Frankfort. The performer was the celebrated Daniel Boone. We walked out together, and followed the rocky margins of the Kentucky River, until we reached a piece of flat land thickly covered with black walnuts, oaks, and hickories. As the general mast was a good one that year, Squirrels were seen gambolling on every tree around us. My companion, a stout, hale, and athletic man, dressed in a homespun hunting-shirt, bare-legged and moccasined, carried a long and heavy rifle, which, as he was loading it, he said had proved efficient in all his former undertakings, and which he hoped would not fail on this occasion, as he felt proud to show me his skill. The gun was wiped, the powder measured, the ball patched with six-hundred-thread linen, and the charge sent home with a hickory rod. We moved not a step from the place, for the Squirrels were so numerous that it was unnecessary to go after them. Boone pointed to one of these animals which had observed us, and was crouched on a branch about fifty paces distant, and bade me mark well the spot where the ball should hit. He raised his piece gradually, until the bead (that being the name given by the Kentuckians to the sight) of the barrel was brought to a line with the spot which he intended to hit. The whip-like report resounded through the woods and along the hills, in repeated echoes. Judge of my surprise when I perceived that the ball had hit the piece of the bark immediately beneath the Squirrel, and shivered it into splinters, the concussion produced by which had killed the animal, and sent it whirling through the air, as if it had been blown up by the explosion of a powder magazine. Boone kept up his firing, and, before many hours had elapsed, we had procured as many Squirrels as we wished; for you must know, kind reader, that to load a rifle requires only a moment, and that if it is wiped once after each shot, it will do duty for hours.

Audubon, Maria R. (2012-12-18). Audubon and his Journals, Vol. 2 (Kindle Locations 6144-6150).  . Kindle Edition.
Audubon, Maria R. (2012-12-18). Audubon and his Journals, Vol. 2 (Kindle Locations 6136-6144).  . Kindle Edition.


Well, I don't know what thickness that thread count linen is (and I suspect a typo or that the cloth measurement was different than used today - that is a large number!), but Dan'l weren't using no short starter, for sure !!!


PS

Found this about historical Scottish tartans: "The average-sized sett for a kilt in modern times is 5 to 6 inches (12 - 15 cms) which gives around 250 threads per sett using a medium weight wool yarn. If of course you were using a much thinner yarn such as silk then that thread count could multiply by three or four.", so if 6 inches was the basis then, then a 600 count would be 100 today (per square inch).

[RobD]

imho, back then, like today, whatever was at hand and worked best would be best.  

i wouldn't doubt even tow was used for patching, as well as leather, leaves, much softened bark, and gawd knows what else.  i doubt that tightly patched balls were the norm, either.  

as to powder, there were many sources including home grown, so lotsa variations in both grain size and potency.

aren't we glad for the abundance we have today!

[sse]

Barking off Squirrels is delightful sport, and in my opinion requires a greater degree of accuracy than any other. I first witnessed this manner of procuring Squirrels whilst near the town of Frankfort. The performer was the celebrated Daniel Boone. We walked out together, and followed the rocky margins of the Kentucky River, until we reached a piece of flat land thickly covered with black walnuts, oaks, and hickories. As the general mast was a good one that year, Squirrels were seen gambolling on every tree around us. My companion, a stout, hale, and athletic man, dressed in a homespun hunting-shirt, bare-legged and moccasined, carried a long and heavy rifle, which, as he was loading it, he said had proved efficient in all his former undertakings, and which he hoped would not fail on this occasion, as he felt proud to show me his skill. The gun was wiped, the powder measured, the ball patched with six-hundred-thread linen, and the charge sent home with a hickory rod. We moved not a step from the place, for the Squirrels were so numerous that it was unnecessary to go after them. Boone pointed to one of these animals which had observed us, and was crouched on a branch about fifty paces distant, and bade me mark well the spot where the ball should hit. He raised his piece gradually, until the bead (that being the name given by the Kentuckians to the sight) of the barrel was brought to a line with the spot which he intended to hit. The whip-like report resounded through the woods and along the hills, in repeated echoes. Judge of my surprise when I perceived that the ball had hit the piece of the bark immediately beneath the Squirrel, and shivered it into splinters, the concussion produced by which had killed the animal, and sent it whirling through the air, as if it had been blown up by the explosion of a powder magazine. Boone kept up his firing, and, before many hours had elapsed, we had procured as many Squirrels as we wished; for you must know, kind reader, that to load a rifle requires only a moment, and that if it is wiped once after each shot, it will do duty for hours.

Audubon, Maria R. (2012-12-18). Audubon and his Journals, Vol. 2 (Kindle Locations 6144-6150).  . Kindle Edition.
Audubon, Maria R. (2012-12-18). Audubon and his Journals, Vol. 2 (Kindle Locations 6136-6144).  . Kindle Edition.


Well, I don't know what thickness that thread count linen is (and I suspect a typo or that the cloth measurement was different than used today - that is a large number!), but Dan'l weren't using no short starter, for sure !!!


PS

Found this about historical Scottish tartans: "The average-sized sett for a kilt in modern times is 5 to 6 inches (12 - 15 cms) which gives around 250 threads per sett using a medium weight wool yarn. If of course you were using a much thinner yarn such as silk then that thread count could multiply by three or four.", so if 6 inches was the basis then, then a 600 count would be 100 today (per square inch).

It was very nice to read this...

[snake eyes]

sse
[/color]

[cb]

Another early 1800's loading text:
"… He blows through his rifle to ascertain that it is clear, examines his flint, and thrusts a featther into the touch-hole. To a leatthern bag swung at his side is attached a powder-horn; his sheath-knife is there also; below hangs a narrow strip of homespun linen. He takes from his bag a bullet, pulls with his teeth the wooden stopper from his powder-horn, lays the ball in one hand, and with the other pours the powder upon it until it is just overtopped. Raising the horn to his mouth, he again closes it with the stopper, and restores it to its place. He introduces the powder into the tube; springs the box of his gun, greases the "patch" over with some melted tallow, or damps it; then places it on the honey-combed muzzle of his piece. The bullet is placed on the patch over the bore, and pressed with the handle of the knife, which now trims the edge of the linen. The elastic hickory rod, held with both hands, smoothly pushes the ball to its bed; once, twice, thrice has it rebounded. The rifle leaps as it were into the hunters arms, the feather is drawn from the touch-hole, the powder fills the pan, which is closed. “Now I’m ready,” cries the woodsman…."

As for granulation sizes in F, FF, FFF, etc. are noted in both 18th and 19th Century texts. Spence on the Muzzleoading forum has listed several primary docs.

[Thunderhawk1828]

Thanks for all replies and information.

While not going to be as accurate I like the idea of a easier / smoother loading with not as thick a patch and will try such and see how much difference there may be with a loose patch v. a tight hammering down patch load.

As for the "F" grain I'm hoping to get good quick ignition with 2F in my .54 for both barrell and pan and if not will go with 3F and try that. Would like to stay away from 2F and 4F in the pan.

Thanks again for all replies.

Thunderhawk1828

[RobD]

i only use 3f down the tube and in the pan for all my muzzleloaders, from .32 to .58 calibers, works just fine.  i also only use .010" linen patch strips that are dry lubed - no muss, no fuss, relatively easy loading for rifle and musket alike with the proper ball size, and the resulting accuracy is as good as my eyes and trigger finger.  

[cb]

Like rfd I too use only 3F in my guns up to 16 ga. and have even used it in my original 11 ga Potzdam musket. My 54's love it. Went to 3F back in 1973 and haven't used anything else since and FWIW I've been shooting BO since 1961..

[Riley/MN]

Like rfd I too use only 3F in my guns up to 16 ga. and have even used it in my original 11 ga Potzdam musket. My 54's love it. Went to 3F back in 1973 and haven't used anything else since and FWIW I've been shooting BO since 1961..

Dang Chuck! I were just a glimmer in '61.....

[cb]

I got lucky. My Great Uncle was a Marine vet of WW1 (Bellau Wood and a couple of other major battles) and when he returned home he swore he would never again use one of those cartridge "devil" guns.
He grew up shooting muzzle loaders and never needed anything more. His main two guns were  New York built late percussion with a Harry Pope barrel that was his pride and joy, along with an 1880's built 16 ga.
Anyway I turned eight in January 1961 and when my uncle found out he had me come up for hunting season and taught me how to shoot the old guns - I got a nice fat doe for eating that year.
A year later I went to visit my first cousin in Allentown, PA, and when Mike found out how interested in the old guns, he took me to meet a friend who was into collecting and shooting flinters. Pretty much never looked back since than - my first two rifles were 1850-60's percussion Lemans, which in the mid-1960's could still be bought through the mail and I paid less than $100.00 for both! Those were the days.....

[Riley/MN]