Leading with minie balls

[bigalber]

Purchased some .50 cal minie balls from Track of the Wolf, which were advertised to work fine with rifles with slow twist rate.  

Youtube has some videos which shows individuals dropping the minie ball directly on top of the powder and ramming down on the powder.

Is there a problem with leading of the barrel.  BP gets quite hot, and I worry about the bullet base melting and fouling the rifling.

How does one tell if a muzzleloading rifle has lead fouling, and how is it cleaned out?

Appreciate the help of those who share their experiences.

AL Bernard
South Central PA

[greyhunter]

We're readin ya, but no one has an answer yet, mini balls should be greased in the grooves, I think that should help prevent leading the rifling. Never read about a problem for Civil war soldiers with leading, but like I say, maybe some one has the answer for ya.

[Uncle Russ]

I agree with greyhunter, Minnie Balls, need lube to soften the fouling in order to load the NEXT Minnie Ball.

A little something you may be interested in;
(Forgive me if this is a bit long, but sometimes more than just a bit of explanation is needed)
 
Back in the day...Prior to the development of this new ammunition and weapons designed to use it, "rifles" were essentially smoothbore muskets with much longer barrels, such as the famed Pennsylvania or Kentucky rifle of the Revolutionary War and War of 1812. They were cumbersome, slow to load, and couldn’t be used with a bayonet, all of which limited their use to a few special military units. Some muskets were created with a type of rifling, but the problem of providing a tight enough fit for the load within the barrel did not permit the true rifling that would come as a result of the Minie´ ball.

In the 1830s, Captain John Norton of the British 34th Regiment was serving in India. Some local tribes used blowguns, and Norton observed the base of their darts was made from pith, the spongy wood from the center of tree trunks. This pith expanded when a person blew into the blowgun’s tube, closing the space between the tube and the dart to give a tight seal that increased the dart’s range.
Based on this principle Norton developed a cylindrical bullet with a hollow base in 1832. His design was improved on in 1836 by a London gunsmith named William Greener, who created an oval-shaped bullet, one end of which had a flat surface with a small hole drilled into it. This hole traveled through most of the length of the bullet and was covered by a conical plug with a round, wooden base. Upon firing, the plug would expand to prevent gases from escaping—essentially the same principle as the blowgun dart.

The design of Norton and Greener was taken a step further by two French army captains, Claude-E´tienne Minie´ and Henri-Gustave Delvigne, who in 1849 created the conical, soft-lead bullet with four rings, and a rifle with a grooved barrel to go with it.
Delvigne, who would go on to co-design several models of revolving pistols, had earlier created a conical bullet design, but Minie´made the projectile smaller and longer, easier to load. At the time, French troops were facing Algerians whose long rifles outranged French muskets, and the invention of Minie´ offered a solution to that problem. (Minie´is properly pronounced min-YAY, but Americans pronounced the name as "Minnie.")

Captain Minie of the French Army is the one must credited with the development of the Mini, Minie, or Minnie Ball, thus giving it its name.

As greyhunter mentioned privously, knowing leading happens, especially with heavier powder charges is well recognized...what to do about it is a whole 'nother thing.
It is equally recognized that a heavy lube / grease in the "rings", or lube grooves, on a Minnie Ball greatly reduces that leading and allows for repeated shots before a swabbing becomes a must in order to get the next Minnie Ball down the barrel.
As far as melting the base of a Minnie? Personally, I don't think that can happen.
Be more concerned about "blowing" the skirt (the hollow portion at the base of a Minnie) which creates radical behavior on the part of the projectile once it leaves the barrel.

Remember, when firing a Musket, or any firearm, you are mechanically converting a solid (gun powder) into a gas, a very high pressure gas...that gas in turn pushes the projectile out of barrel at a very high rate of speed, along with any "un-burned" powder.

With a "bore light" you can see leading, some say a blue light is better while others say a green light is better as lead supposedly "bends" the refraction of different colored light waves....either way, following a good soapy water scrub with patch and bristled brush, then a good solvent you will remove the lead, then a good wipe down to dry it real well, and a touch of oil and you're ready to go do it all over again.

Fun, ain't it!
A London gunsmith named William Greener, if you're really into guns and shooting you may want to remember that name!
England's version of our own John Browning....

Uncle Russ...

[Bigsmoke]

Well, Uncle Russ, that was quite a treatise you wrote there:  Everything you wanted to know about the Minnie Ball but were afraid to ask.
Good job, my friend.  That answered Al's question better than I could have.

To Al, I am wondering why you want to shoot a Minnie Ball?
If you are concerned with leading, the easy answer is to shoot a PRB.  With the PRB, you never get leading because the lead never contacts the bore of the rifle.  If you are wanting a heavier projectile, the answer is pretty easy also.  Shoot a bigger ball in a larger caliber rifle.  I am guessing the .50 Minnie will weigh about 350 grains+/-?  A .62 caliber rifle will shoot a .610 diameter, 335 grain round ball.  With the correct rifling it will also shoot it faster, flatter and further.  And with the wider frontal area, it will hit harder as well.  And a big bore rifle is a lot more fun to shoot.  At least that is my prejudiced opinion.

[bigalber]

Most of my shooting has been Cowboy Action, which mandates hard cast lead bullets.  So leading of barrels is something to be avoided (from experience).

I'm new to muzzleloading long guns, having gotten started late last year, although I have shot cap & ball revolvers.

I have 3 sidelocks, a flintlock Kentucky rifle, a caplock Hawken, and a caplock pistol, all in 50 cal.  Trying to convince myself that I need a 20 gauge Fowler to shoot clay birds, but don't think I can con myself into another rifle.  Hunting is not in my plans.

Although ramming home a PRB is a PIA, it's part of the joy of muzzleloading.  But it is tiring in a long practice session.  Shooting minie balls, which are so much easier to load, would allow longer practice sessions to get used to handling the rifles.  Endurance is an issue I deal with.

Appreciate the feedback.

AL

[edmundreiss1]

I am also considering going to hornady 50 cal. conical pa. at 240 grains. Would this improve accuracy in my lyman trade rifle shooting 70 grains of FFG. I am presently using 70 grains FFG, a .490 round ball, .020 patch and a wad cutter over the powder because my patches were getting cut. I have already lapped the barell with steel wool

[Uncle Russ]

I am also considering going to hornady 50 cal. conical pa. at 240 grains. Would this improve accuracy in my lyman trade rifle shooting 70 grains of FFG. I am presently using 70 grains FFG, a .490 round ball, .020 patch and a wad cutter over the powder because my patches were getting cut. I have already lapped the barell with steel wool

Great question edmundreiss1!  

Uncle Russ...

[edmundreiss1]

Thanks Uncle  Russ for your helpful input, I really appreciate it! I know I should shoot my Hawken more, practice makes perfect and I owe that to the animal I am hunting. I might stick with the roundball here in Pa. this season and maybe try out the Pa. conical in spring. Thanks again! Ed

[Hawken]

Regardless of the minie ball being lubed the base of the ball can be 'gas cut' and then lead deposited to the bore!

Shoot these and your worries are gone:

PRB by Sharps Man, on Flickr

[edmundreiss1]

Thanks for your input, i appreciate it!

[RobD]

i agree on using a patched ball, even for hunting.  however, if a heavier projectile is really needed, i would try out a lee REAL bullet, well lubed.  the use of a wad, or wads, or even a grease cookie may aid in following the bullet down the tube, aiding in cleaning out fouling and probably most if not all lead deposit.  make sure to tamp down and compress the powder/wad(s)/bullet - any air space 'tween powder and ball is a very bad thing with black powder.  the type of lube used is important with black powder powered bullets.  for both bpcr and muzzleloaders alike i use home made "gato feo" ("ugly cat") bullet and patch lube. it is a well proven black powder lube that's easy to make with readily available components ...

GATO FEO LUBE

by weight ...

1 part mutton tallow (dixie gun works)
1 part canning wax (gulf)
1/2 part beeswax

melt and mix in "double boiler" style - pot of water on a stove, components in a can within the potted water.  pour out the liquid lube into a milk carton or muffin tin.  when cooled it will be soft enuf to just rub into the grooves of a minie, or maxi, or REAL bullet.  rubbed into a patch strip and melted in with a hair dryer or heat gun makes a super patch lube.

(click the image below to see the patch strip lube video)

[RobD]

...  I am presently using 70 grains FFG, a .490 round ball, .020 patch and a wad cutter over the powder because my patches were getting cut. I have already lapped the barell with steel wool

there is no easy, pat, works-no-matter-what patched ball recipe that works for every rifle and every shooter.  experimentation is required - always.  increase and decrease the powder charge AND the granule size ... i find that 3F works best for all my flinters, both down the tube and in the pan.  yer patch may be too thick, also requiring a short starter and possibly a hammer to get down the barrel's throat.  this alone could set up the patch for getting compromised by the barrel's lands.  instead, go thinner for the patch material and increase in increments - .010, .012, .015. .018 - all material is definitely not alike.  when you find one that works well, yields good consistent accuracy from 25 yards to 75 and even 100 yards, stock up on it!

precut patches or patch strips cut at the muzzle?  i'm of the camp that prefers cutting at the muzzle, as this insures the ball will always be in the center of the patch, and i'll not have a lop sided patch going in and out of the tube that could "screw ball" the ball.
.

[edmundreiss1]

Thanks for ur help, i just might try dropping to 60 grains of Ffg. Is that still good enough for a clean kill ona deer at 75 yards?

[RobD]

first off, i didn't see you post it, but what is yer rifle and what is the twist rate?  

if 1:60 or so, that will work best with a patched ball.  if the more liberal 1:48, that'll work ok for ball or bullet.  if it's a faster twist, balls will lose out over bullets.

deer of the whitetail variety are typically quite thin skinned and a patched 128 grain .440 ball over 50 grains of 3fg will blast right on thru the vitals at 60+ yards - been there, done that.  SO, a far Far FAR heavier greased .50 bullet over 60 grains of 2fg will destroy a deer at 100 yards, let alone 75 yards.  but, imho, i do believe yer gonna be much better off with a patched 175 grain .490 ball under whatever black powder charge works most consistently accurate with yer rifle, and you at the helm.  all of this is assuming a twist rate of between 1:60 and 1:48.

[rollingb]

...  I am presently using 70 grains FFG, a .490 round ball, .020 patch and a wad cutter over the powder because my patches were getting cut. I have already lapped the barell with steel wool

there is no easy, pat, works-no-matter-what patched ball recipe that works for every rifle and every shooter.  experimentation is required - always.  increase and decrease the powder charge AND the granule size ... i find that 3F works best for all my flinters, both down the tube and in the pan.  yer patch may be too thick, also requiring a short starter and possibly a hammer to get down the barrel's throat.  this alone could set up the patch for getting compromised by the barrel's lands.  instead, go thinner for the patch material and increase in increments - .010, .012, .015. .018 - all material is definitely not alike.  when you find one that works well, yields good consistent accuracy from 25 yards to 75 and even 100 yards, stock up on it!

precut patches or patch strips cut at the muzzle?  i'm of the camp that prefers cutting at the muzzle, as this insures the ball will always be in the center of the patch, and i'll not have a lop sided patch going in and out of the tube that could "screw ball" the ball.
.

Very wise words,.... also, he might want to try some .495 balls when he's 'spermintin' with various patch thickness. (always using pure 100% cotton for patchin')