Trade Gun Pics 2

[Oldetexian]

Sorry about first post having all the same pic...Here are the others:

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[rollingb]

If you are wondering about lock identification,.... I can say with some certainty it's not one of North Star West's locks.

Also,.... I've never seen a trade gun's breech with a "step" in it quite like your's.

Thinking someone may have attempted to replicate a particular "guns for indian trade contract" gun within the US,.... I did find Deringer, Springfield, and Leman, made a few RIFLES with double-throated cocks, with Deringer also using some "second-hand locks" (off captured Brown Bess guns) after the War of 1812 on a few of their contracted North West guns for the fur trade.

Again,.... I can't find a US contract "gun for indian trade" that used a "step" (in the breech area) on any of their barrels.

If someone did attempt to replicate a "guns for indian trade",.... I'd need to see some pictures of your gun's, butt plate, thimbles, and lock bolt side-plate,.... to use as additional clues as to which trade gun he was replicating. 

[Oldetexian]

If you are wondering about lock identification,.... I can say with some certainty it's not one of North Star West's locks.

Also,.... I've never seen a trade gun's breech with a "step" in it quite like your's.

Thinking someone may have attempted to replicate a particular "guns for indian trade contract" gun within the US,.... I did find Deringer, Springfield, and Leman, made a few RIFLES with double-throated cocks, with Deringer also using some "second-hand locks" (off captured Brown Bess guns) after the War of 1812 on a few of their contracted North West guns for the fur trade.

Again,.... I can't find a US contract "gun for indian trade" that used a "step" (in the breech area) on any of their barrels.

If someone did attempt to replicate a "guns for indian trade",.... I'd need to see some pictures of your gun's, butt plate, thimbles, and lock bolt side-plate,.... to use as additional clues as to which trade gun he was replicating. 

THANKS!
That is far more info than I have previously had...I will take pics of butt plate, thimbles and side plate, as I would luv to find out more about the gun. You have given me some encouragement for sure.

[Oldetexian]

Here are the additional pics. Hopefully, they will help identify the trade gun.

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[rollingb]

Well Ray,.... I'm not having much luck.

I can't find an original lock on North West trade guns that are both,... flat faced and have the Germanic style contour of your lock's pan.

Your ramrod thimbles are typical of the various thimbles made over a span of 350 years, and are still available today.

Your side plate is a puzzler also,.... as almost without exception, (both foreign and domestic) North West trade guns serpent/dragon side plates had holes for the 2 lock bolts PLUS a hole in the dragon's tail for a wood screw, in both types,... cast and stamped from sheet brass. The only exception for a (short style) serpent/dragon side plate similar to your's (that I could find), were on some Chief's Guns made by Richard Wilson in 1750-1770, and they had the typical small brass trigger guard bow (engraved), along with the engraved brass butt plates found on government contracted Chief's Guns.

From all indications,.... I'm gonna guess your trade gun was built sometime around, or, after 1960, mainly due to the unusual "step" in the barrel's breech area.
Are there any stamps/marks on the gun's barrel to indicate who may have made it, and have you had the barrel out of the stock to see if there are any "maker's-mark" on the underside towards the breech end?

Also,.... I forgot to ask if the tang bolt on your gun enters from the top and screws into the trigger plate, or if it angles up from the bottom (in front of the trigger bow) and screws into the tang. Looking at your pictures I'm guessing the bolt comes in from the top, which would indicate it's probably a replica of one of the later style North West trade guns.
A lot of replicas built around that time period were built by individuals using parts no longer available from today's parts suppliers, or were custom made. 

The main thing is,........ DOES SHE SHOOT GOOD? 

[Ohio Joe]

I think from what I'm seeing in an old 1997 Dixie Gun Works Catalog. that's suppose to be a Charleville Model 1763 Musket Lock (page 197)... Dixie GW sold the parts to make / repair them,,, but it also resembles DGW pg 230 (LP0702) Harper's Ferry Lock (pg 230),,, which would account for the US on the lock...

So my best guess is that someone either put their own lock together (never beveling the plate edges), (and this was something early builders in our hobby were known to do - building from parts) or it's an offshore build from who knows where?

I think it could be a hobby build myself as the butt-plate is screwed on rather then nailed on...

Perhaps searching "Harper's Ferry Trade Gun" may turn something up?

[rollingb]

I think from what I'm seeing in an old 1997 Dixie Gun Works Catalog. that's suppose to be a Charleville Model 1763 Musket Lock (page 197)... Dixie GW sold the parts to make / repair them,,, but it also resembles DGW pg 230 (LP0702) Harper's Ferry Lock (pg 230),,, which would account for the US on the lock...

So my best guess is that someone either put their own lock together (never beveling the plate edges), (and this was something early builders in our hobby were known to do - building from parts) or it's an offshore build from who knows where?

I think it could be a hobby build myself as the butt-plate is screwed on rather then nailed on...

That's pretty much my thinkin' too Joe,.... although there were some later flintlock North West guns with butt plates held on with screws, followed by just about ALL the percussion North West guns had butt plates with screws. (from what I can make out)
Also,.... if Ray's tang bolt comes down from the top and screws into the trigger plate, it doesn't match any of the guns I'm seein' that have double throated cocks.

For me,.... the "stepped" breech on Ray's gun is the real head scratcher. Does Ray's barrel match any on the guns you mentioned in the old Dixie catalog?

[Ohio Joe]

I think from what I'm seeing in an old 1997 Dixie Gun Works Catalog. that's suppose to be a Charleville Model 1763 Musket Lock (page 197)... Dixie GW sold the parts to make / repair them,,, but it also resembles DGW pg 230 (LP0702) Harper's Ferry Lock (pg 230),,, which would account for the US on the lock...

So my best guess is that someone either put their own lock together (never beveling the plate edges), (and this was something early builders in our hobby were known to do - building from parts) or it's an offshore build from who knows where?

I think it could be a hobby build myself as the butt-plate is screwed on rather then nailed on...

That's pretty much my thinkin' too Joe,.... although there were some later flintlock North West guns with butt plates held on with screws, followed by just about ALL the percussion North West guns had butt plates with screws. (from what I can make out)
Also,.... if Ray's tang bolt comes down from the top and screws into the trigger plate, it doesn't match any of the guns I'm seein' that have double throated cocks.

For me,.... the "stepped" breech on Ray's gun is the real head scratcher. Does Ray's barrel match any on the guns you mentioned in the old Dixie catalog?

No, they do not match any that I see,,, nor any that I've searched for on the internet... I looked heavily into the Pedersoli line and came up short there (the stock wood rather resembled the one I got from you a few years back - that's why I started searching off-shore builders)... I simply can not find anything even close to Ray's smoothy...

[Ohio Joe]

I will add one thing that makes me wonder if this is a "home" build;

Every Harper's Ferry Flintlock "Lock" I've looked at so far - the "pan" is round bottomed, as where Ray's isn't... This is one reason I think it's a "home" build... The "US" on the lock plate - I still think is to reference it to a Harper's Ferry lock... 

[rollingb]

I will add one thing that makes me wonder if this is a "home" build;

Every Harper's Ferry Flintlock "Lock" I've looked at so far - the "pan" is round bottomed, as where Ray's isn't... This is one reason I think it's a "home" build... The "US" on the lock plate - I still think is to reference it to a Harper's Ferry lock...

I agree,.... the pan on Ray's lock looks "Germanic" due to the "corner" on the bottom, similar to the "corners" on a Siler lock.
Lookin' through my book, I can't find any North West guns that were made in Germany. 

[Oldetexian]

WOW! You fellars really know your guns... I have already learned more about the smoothie than I ever knew before, so thanks! I have now taken it completely apart. There are no markings on the underside of the barrel, nor anywhere else.

I do not have the knowledge base nor the skill level to take the lock apart, so I need more advice. Should I spray the lock with WD-40 and try to get it to work more easily? Or should I put the smoothie back together and try to find a knowledgable gunsmith?

There is no need to attempt hunting with her until the trigger and lock functions properly...

[Ohio Joe]

Ray, here's what I think you have a copy of, an RE Davis Harpers Ferry Lock;

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/751/1/LOCK-COMMON 

TOTW is actually out of stock on the above Lock

What does your lock measure? 5.25 long x .99 (1" tall at its tallest plate point)

If the one track has fits it, (or contact RE Davis) it might be cheaper in the long run to buy a new one, maybe? Without actually having the lock in hand to examine it, it could be 1 thing, or 2 things, or a combination of things?  It's only guess work?

I'd kind'a like to see a good picture of the lock mortise myself. That sometimes can tell some good stories.

Also, I'm not saying you have an RE Davis Lock (he would never turn something like that out), but I believe someone has tried to make this lock from different lock parts or a kit...

[Hank in WV]

Just for the record, I think the Log Cabin Shop bought out R.E. Davis.

[rollingb]

WOW! You fellars really know your guns... I have already learned more about the smoothie than I ever knew before, so thanks! I have now taken it completely apart. There are no markings on the underside of the barrel, nor anywhere else.

I do not have the knowledge base nor the skill level to take the lock apart, so I need more advice. Should I spray the lock with WD-40 and try to get it to work more easily? Or should I put the smoothie back together and try to find a knowledgable gunsmith?

There is no need to attempt hunting with her until the trigger and lock functions properly...

Ray,.... the ideal situation would be to take the lock apart and clean it up real good, oil it, and put it back together, if you are comfortable doing such.
Other than that, you could box the lock up and send it to Elk Killer in Oklahoma, he's a real whiz with flint locks and does fine work. 

As for the trigger, that shouldn't take much, maybe a bit of oil and working it back and forth to free things up. 

If you're not familiar with taking locks apart, you shouldn't attempt to do so without a "mainspring vise" or you risk breaking the spring. 
PM me if you would like Elk Killer's name and address.   

[rollingb]

Just for the record, I think the Log Cabin Shop bought out R.E. Davis.

Yes,.... they did.