Where are all the guns?

[RobD]

Offshore sidelock guns appear to be out of stock almost everywhere.

I have mixed feelings about this. 

On one hand, they're cheap and can get someone interested started reasonably well.  Understanding the quirks of offshore patent breech plugs is just a bugaboo to overcome.  Gone are the days of the $400 Lyman trade rifle, and now that Lyman has Pedersoli (Italian) manufacturing their guns instead of Investarms (Italian), double the price tag.  This is not good.  That's a lotta loot to get introduced to trad sidelock guns. 

Where are the cheap guns?  Traditions (Spanish) appear to be all that's left, if you can find one - $350/kit and $440/assembled for a percussion rifle.  Flint - $445/kit and $510/assembled.  These guns will have breech plugs that are difficult if not impossible to remove, IF that might be a concern down the road.  It must be noted that these offshore trad sidelock "kits" are "screwdriver kits", cause that's all it takes to stick one together and stock finishing is too easy even for a kid to accomplish.

Spending at least $1000 for a decent used onshore sidelock is just a big road block for getting into trad muzzleloaders.

There are some offshore guns available at DGW ...

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index/page/category/category_id/312/category_chain/312/name/Guns+%26+Gun+Kits/

[Ohio Joe]

The cheaply priced entry level ML's are becoming a thing of the past, and most are built no better today, then when they were 40/50 years ago. In short, the $600.00 to $800.00 kits, are the new "entry level" price tag. Inflation knows no bounds...

Also remember that today's potential crop of new comers to traditional ML were raised on modern firearms (aided by Hollywood and TV Shows of today and past years)...

There are no more "Crockett & Boone, nor Kit Carson" adventures... Not to mention that most of todays crop of people simply have no intentions of getting their hands dirty - nor do most have any skills (other then computer skills) and have no idea how to work with wood and metal...

Lets face it,,, we are now viewed as the old relics by todays "educated" failed youth. 

[Keb]

A lot of people started out wanting a custom gun but opted for a TC or others. I first muzzleloader shot was a TC Hawken belonging to my brother. All that did was make me want a better gun but custom guns were expensive so I set out to build my own. It doesn't matter what the prices were then. I'm guessing wages & cost of living compare to today's prices. The gun I made was pretty ugly, way too much wood, mismatched parts, etc. but it shot great.
I guess what I'm trying to say is if a fella wants a muzzleloader he can build one for reasonable money. Forget about all the pressure from other people & just buy the best parts you can afford and put it together. Learn how to load, not flinch & the rest will come. Don't waste money on Italian, Spainish or India guns that don't perform. Remember, Jim Kibler has assembled a quality kit anyone can assemble for a very reasonable price.

Yer pal, Keb

[Ohio Joe]

A lot of people started out wanting a custom gun but opted for a TC or others. I first muzzleloader shot was a TC Hawken belonging to my brother. All that did was make me want a better gun but custom guns were expensive so I set out to build my own. It doesn't matter what the prices were then. I'm guessing wages & cost of living compare to today's prices. The gun I made was pretty ugly, way too much wood, mismatched parts, etc. but it shot great.
I guess what I'm trying to say is if a fella wants a muzzleloader he can build one for reasonable money. Forget about all the pressure from other people & just buy the best parts you can afford and put it together. Learn how to load, not flinch & the rest will come. Don't waste money on Italian, Spainish or India guns that don't perform. Remember, Jim Kibler has assembled a quality kit anyone can assemble for a very reasonable price.

Yer pal, Keb

 

[RobD]

Rolling yer own is not something everyone can do.  In fact, too few will not be able to accomplish that task and to more than most is something beyond consideration. 

A Kibler kit will absolutely require both tools and smarts - been there, have both of those qualities, and know for sure most will struggle to get the job done.

What's sorely needed is an offshore kit (or ready assembled gun) made here in the States that takes a screwdriver to assemble, not build.  It needs to have a sensible flat breech plug, be a half stock for ease of assembly and maintenance, and offered in cap and flint.  As to the bore, that's an iffy thing - maybe just a .50 rifle to keep the production costs down. This is not a Herculean task and should fair trade at a profitable $600.  THAT would be the perfect "starter" sidelock that's viable, reliable, and cost effective for both manufacturer and consumer and put a dent in offshore gun sales.  NO, it's not a period correct firearm, it's a mish-mosh that kinda sorta looks okay at the range, rondy, or campfire gathering.  This is not about being historical, it's about getting a Good gun in the hands of those wanting to stick a toe in the trad muzzleloader waters.  It's a gun that would be worthy to have even after moving on to a custom sidelock muzzleloader.  At least I can dream.       

[Nessmuk]

Amen ,Brother!   

[nobber]

pecatonica used to have 85% kits that were nice when assembled


nobber

[RobD]

pecatonica used to have 85% kits that were nice when assembled


nobber

I remember them, they were purty good, too. 

But I'd still like to see a trad sidelock offered as I posted above - simple, reliable, hooked breech bbl w/flat breech plug, good lock, and single pinned trigger.  I think it can be done today.  If I was younger I'd take the task on, corral the right sources and market it correctly.

[KDubs]

pecatonica used to have 85% kits that were nice when assembled
nobber

Thats what I'm building now,  20ga Fowler.
 Still requires some wood working knowledge .
 And at 1000$  not quite a cheap project.
Kevin

[Winter Hawk]

They have an underhammer kit which is about half that, if I recall correctly.

~Kees~

[RobD]

Underhammers are both good and cheap, but are not what we-the-people need in order to bring new blood into the historical "sport" of trad muzzleloading.

We need a good side lock long gun that most anyone can afford.

[PetahW]

.

The best way to obtain an inexpensive sidelock front stuffer is to scout around for a good/used one that's been languishing in a gunshop that isn't into traditional muzzleloaders.

I've seen locally where a T/C sidelock can be had for less than $400 w/o bargaining.

I bought these two Seneca's, in separate shops for $100 (.45) & $300 (.36); and a .50 CVA premier Grade Mountain Rifle online for $350

 

[RobD]

Yes, while there used to be a fair selection of good used trad side locks, their scarce today and their price tags usually require a double take.

I don't wanna go the offshore or used route.  There are better ways to build and offer a decent new build trad muzzy that incorporates both flint and cap features, will not have that damned patent breech, and won't break the bank either. 

Hooked breech half-stock is the better way to go, using any decent hardwood.  Shotgun or semi-crescent butt with sheet cap.  A 28" single keyed bbl in .50 bore as a standard (the adventurous could get that reamed to .54 or even .58 as a smoothie - this is possible because the breech plug is a classic flat faced).  Simple rod in twin pipes.  A lock rout that will allow swapping between flint and cap for ease of production.  Simple sights.  Single pinned trigger.  Iron furniture.  Kit or ready built.  What's not to like for $500-600?

[huntinguy]

Yes, while there used to be a fair selection of good used trad side locks, their scarce today and their price tags usually require a double take.

I don't wanna go the offshore or used route.  There are better ways to build and offer a decent new build trad muzzy that incorporates both flint and cap features, will not have that damned patent breech, and won't break the bank either. 

Hooked breech half-stock is the better way to go, using any decent hardwood.  Shotgun or semi-crescent butt with sheet cap.  A 28" single keyed bbl in .50 bore as a standard (the adventurous could get that reamed to .54 or even .58 as a smoothie - this is possible because the breech plug is a classic flat faced).  Simple rod in twin pipes.  A lock rout that will allow swapping between flint and cap for ease of production.  Simple sights.  Single pinned trigger.  Iron furniture.  Kit or ready built.  What's not to like for $500-600?

for a shop with those tools, gun drill, NC mill, heat treat, 4 axis NC router, plus the hand work. to hit that $500.00 you would have 5 hours or less labor. I wouldn't want to bid that job. To make it a simple snap together would need each of those operations to be dialed in perfect.

A grand for a kit is a lot of money. Buying the parts listed above would be pretty close to that at retail. The sad state of affairs, things are expensive any more.

used guns, well, it depends where you are. Some places prices are reasonable. Where I am at... well, there are no $100.00 Senecas around.

[RobD]

Yes, while there used to be a fair selection of good used trad side locks, their scarce today and their price tags usually require a double take.

I don't wanna go the offshore or used route.  There are better ways to build and offer a decent new build trad muzzy that incorporates both flint and cap features, will not have that damned patent breech, and won't break the bank either. 

Hooked breech half-stock is the better way to go, using any decent hardwood.  Shotgun or semi-crescent butt with sheet cap.  A 28" single keyed bbl in .50 bore as a standard (the adventurous could get that reamed to .54 or even .58 as a smoothie - this is possible because the breech plug is a classic flat faced).  Simple rod in twin pipes.  A lock rout that will allow swapping between flint and cap for ease of production.  Simple sights.  Single pinned trigger.  Iron furniture.  Kit or ready built.  What's not to like for $500-600?

for a shop with those tools, gun drill, NC mill, heat treat, 4 axis NC router, plus the hand work. to hit that $500.00 you would have 5 hours or less labor. I wouldn't want to bid that job. To make it a simple snap together would need each of those operations to be dialed in perfect.

A grand for a kit is a lot of money. Buying the parts listed above would be pretty close to that at retail. The sad state of affairs, things are expensive any more.

used guns, well, it depends where you are. Some places prices are reasonable. Where I am at... well, there are no $100.00 Senecas around.

*IF* Henry USA can offer a gorgeous American walnut stocked single shot break-open rifle that sells for $400 street, then there is no reason a simpler trad muzzy can't be offered for $500-600 street.  FWIW, I've had 3 of these Henry s/s rifles and they are an Amazing value.

It can be done ... the manufacturers' question is, why bother doing it?