Your TMA Officers and Board of Directors
Support the TMA! ~ Traditional Muzzleloaders ~ The TMA is here for YOU!
*** JOIN in on the TMA 2024 POSTAL MATCH *** it's FREE for ALL !

For TMA related products, please check out the new TMA Store !

The Flintlock Paper

*** Folk Firearms Collective Videos ***



Author Topic: Proposed Changes to the 2024 Postal Match Rules  (Read 9883 times)

Online Nessmuk

  • TMA BoD
  • ****
  • Posts: 1138
  • 2019 thru 2024 Postal Match Director
  • TMA Member: TMA Contributing Member
  • Location: OK
Proposed Changes to the 2024 Postal Match Rules
« on: February 23, 2024, 05:13:42 PM »
Proposed Changes to the 2024 Postal Match Rules

I, for one, am not a fan of Off-Hand shooting. At 68 years old, my eyesight has worsened and my right hip is weak but I still love to shoot. Many of us have similar problems so i propose the following shooting positions be authorized:

  1. Off-Hand

  2. Standing with Cross-Sticks

  3. Kneeling or Kneeling with cross-Sticks

  4. Prone or Prone with Cross-Sticks or Primitive Rest.

  5.  Sitting or Sitting with Cross-Sticks
 
  6. Sitting at a bench or Table with a Primitive rest

   Defining a "Primitive Rest", Any rest that  is non-adjustable preferably homemade. Something a Pre-1840 marksman or hunter would use (Sorry, your Lead sled is definitely out)

All other rules remain pretty much the same.

  Reply with your thoughts, approval, disapproval or opinion.


I'm  not  H/C or P/C or even a particularly  good shot but I have a hell of a good time!

Dedicated to the TMA.
Join us, Friend

Online Salty

  • TMA Contributing Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
  • Location: Texas
Re: Proposed Changes to the 2024 Postal Match Rules
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2024, 06:43:40 PM »
Nessmuk, I like this idea especially those with cross sticks and or primitive rest.
“We’re supposed to be surrounded…we’re paratroopers” Captain Richard Winters, Bastogne 1944

Online dmarsh

  • TMA Contributing Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 224
  • TMA Member: Member #798
Re: Proposed Changes to the 2024 Postal Match Rules
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2024, 08:29:46 PM »
I am hoping to get back in the game this year assuming life does not get in the way again.  I agree with your proposal.  :hairy  At 75 the guns are getting heavy and tend to weave and bob.  Had cataract surgery last year so the eyes are fine but good eyes watching the end of the barrel move around does not make for good shooting. :bigsmile: :hairy
"I won't be wronged.  I won't be insulted.  I won't be laid a hand on.  I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them."  John Wayne


Online cwgrizz

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 41
  • Location: Arizona
Re: Proposed Changes to the 2024 Postal Match Rules
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2024, 11:36:31 PM »
After last year's lack of participation, I probably shouldn't say anything, but I am 74 and have my ailments, but I still prefer offhand for distances of 25 yards, maybe props or sticks for longer distances.
IOW I would be for setting up different circumstances for occasional months, but keep all on the same page for the shoots.

Thanks,
Nessmuk

Online KDubs

  • TMA Contributing Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1015
  • Location: Idaho
Re: Proposed Changes to the 2024 Postal Match Rules
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2024, 09:12:53 AM »
Would we all participate in the same group. IE kneeling with x sticks.
 Or can I shoot off hand, my preferred, much more like hunting practice for me.
 Since this is for fun I'll shoot however..
 Looking forward to it
Kevin
TMA Idaho rep.
USAF Medic 1982-1992  Aim High

Online Nessmuk

  • TMA BoD
  • ****
  • Posts: 1138
  • 2019 thru 2024 Postal Match Director
  • TMA Member: TMA Contributing Member
  • Location: OK
Re: Proposed Changes to the 2024 Postal Match Rules
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2024, 09:40:47 AM »
     More clarification, shooting position would be up to the individual shooter.. I would report scores by shooting position, however.
I'm  not  H/C or P/C or even a particularly  good shot but I have a hell of a good time!

Dedicated to the TMA.
Join us, Friend

Online BEAVERMAN

  • TMA Contributing Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6038
  • TMA: TMA Vice President
  • TMA Member: Charter Member #145
  • Location: Vaughn, WA
Re: Proposed Changes to the 2024 Postal Match Rules
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2024, 02:29:38 PM »
Would we all participate in the same group. IE kneeling with x sticks.
 Or can I shoot off hand, my preferred, much more like hunting practice for me.
 Since this is for fun I'll shoot however..
 Looking forward to it
Kevin

If I get down on my knees, and IF I get back up I'm not walking for days! shoot from the bench? I'd be in for that! :yessir:
Jim Smith
TMA Vice President
Charter Member #145  EXPIRATION 1/21/25
Green River Mountain Men
Peninsula Longrifles
WSMA
U.S.M.C.
BSA                    
Save America. Spay or neuter a liberal today.

"An armed man is a citizen,..an unarmed man is a subject!"

Online Bigsmoke

  • TMA Contributing Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4277
  • TMA: Charter Member #150
Re: Proposed Changes to the 2024 Postal Match Rules
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2024, 03:11:19 PM »
Would we all participate in the same group. IE kneeling with x sticks.
 Or can I shoot off hand, my preferred, much more like hunting practice for me.
 Since this is for fun I'll shoot however..
 Looking forward to it
Kevin

If I get down on my knees, and IF I get back up I'm not walking for days! shoot from the bench? I'd be in for that! :yessir:


Beav - Sounds like you are getting old, kid.
Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest Up to God.

BigSmoke - John Shorb
TMA Charter Member #150  
NRA - Life
Coeur d'Alene Muzzleloaders - Life

Online Hank in WV

  • TMA Contributing Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2049
  • TMA Member: Charter Member #65
Re: Proposed Changes to the 2024 Postal Match Rules
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2024, 06:34:22 PM »

[/quote]

If I get down on my knees, and IF I get back up I'm not walking for days! shoot from the bench? I'd be in for that! :yessir:
[/quote]


Looks to me you'd better get out in the back yard and practice snapping in old boy.
Hank in WV
TMA Charter Member #65, exp 4/30/2026
"Much of the social history of the western world over the past three decades has involved replacing what worked with what sounded good. . ." Thomas Sowell

Online BEAVERMAN

  • TMA Contributing Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6038
  • TMA: TMA Vice President
  • TMA Member: Charter Member #145
  • Location: Vaughn, WA
Re: Proposed Changes to the 2024 Postal Match Rules
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2024, 08:10:02 PM »
Would we all participate in the same group. IE kneeling with x sticks.
 Or can I shoot off hand, my preferred, much more like hunting practice for me.
 Since this is for fun I'll shoot however..
 Looking forward to it
Kevin

If I get down on my knees, and IF I get back up I'm not walking for days! shoot from the bench? I'd be in for that! :yessir:


Beav - Sounds like you are getting old, kid.


AND WORE OUT!  trying not to let the old man in but there's days he's winning the battle!
Jim Smith
TMA Vice President
Charter Member #145  EXPIRATION 1/21/25
Green River Mountain Men
Peninsula Longrifles
WSMA
U.S.M.C.
BSA                    
Save America. Spay or neuter a liberal today.

"An armed man is a citizen,..an unarmed man is a subject!"

Online BEAVERMAN

  • TMA Contributing Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6038
  • TMA: TMA Vice President
  • TMA Member: Charter Member #145
  • Location: Vaughn, WA
Re: Proposed Changes to the 2024 Postal Match Rules
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2024, 08:13:11 PM »


If I get down on my knees, and IF I get back up I'm not walking for days! shoot from the bench? I'd be in for that! :yessir:
[/quote]


Looks to me you'd better get out in the back yard and practice snapping in old boy.
[/quote]

Ya know Hank, that's just one thing a marine never forgets, especially if your last 10 months you were TDY to Edson Range at Pendleton as a range coach! now if I got down in the prone position you'ld have to wake me up!
Jim Smith
TMA Vice President
Charter Member #145  EXPIRATION 1/21/25
Green River Mountain Men
Peninsula Longrifles
WSMA
U.S.M.C.
BSA                    
Save America. Spay or neuter a liberal today.

"An armed man is a citizen,..an unarmed man is a subject!"

Online The Miner '49er

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 360
  • Achieved 2020 Challenge / 4 year postal competitor
  • Location: OH
Re: Proposed Changes to the 2024 Postal Match Rules
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2024, 12:19:52 PM »
Sorry, this is a long read. I'm not a Debbie Downer and this isn't the rant of a grumpy old geezer. It is, however, my honest reply to Nessmuk's recent request for comments on the postal matches. In a nutshell, I don't see the point of continuing something we call a "match" when it isn't one. Each month a few guys venture out as often as they please to shoot an unlimited number of targets, and then they cherry pick the best one and submit it. This is not a match. IMHO this practice actually discourages participation. I think a postal shoot should differ from a real shoot in just two ways - you aren't physically shoulder to shoulder (which should lessen the pressure and improve your score), and you get to choose the day and time you shoot (which should also be a benefit). Be honest with yourself, anything else, shooting then choosing your best of the day target does not reveal your prowess. For any of us to believe that is nuts. We all have life demands and health issues. I'm 77 and arthritis is playing Hobb with my hands. I find it very difficult to hold and operate a handgun (think CCW ramifications). My shooting this year isn't as good as before, but I accept it and deal with it as best I can. In recent years we have had three NMDs who have each done their best to pique interest in the postals, but try as they may it hasn't happened. They have offered a varied menu of targets, distances, and positions. There have been 25, 50, and 100 yard bulls, 25 yard rondys, and (for me at least, the most fun) a 25+50+100 yard challenge match in 2020. Did YOU try that, and if not, why not? Shooting positions of standing, sitting, kneeling, prone and benchrest have been offered. What has been the participation? Each year usually about a dozen guys throw their hats in the ring, but the result in the last three years have been nothing to crow about. Even though there is no cost to compete and the postal is open to everyone, not just the 4440+ TMA members, never more than 6 guys have shot 4 or more times out of the seven postal shooting months each year. To make matters worse is the fact that there is nearly zero chatter on the forum. The postal section is sterile. What else can a NMD possibly offer to motivate people? I can't justify using more of my powder, lead, and especially my limited and dwindling supply of caps to shoot in what I don't believe is competition. Once again, I publicly thank Ohio Joe, Rob, and Nessmuk for their efforts, but I believe it's a lost cause to continue the postal. I do, however have a suggestion. Replace it with a new forum section, perhaps call it "shooters showcase." This could be where any interested shooter can display his all-time best targets and tell, maybe even show, us the gun and the load used and how he did it. P.S. I really hope that this year a couple dozen shooters prove me wrong and the postal is wildly successful.
Defend the 2nd Amendment - If you can't fight for your rights, you don't have any!     "I was standin' at the toe mark on the 25-yard line, I was gunnin' fer' a 50 with my rifle Clementine."

Offline Winter Hawk

  • TMA Contributing Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2571
  • Location: Chauncey, OH
Re: Proposed Changes to the 2024 Postal Match Rules
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2024, 09:57:50 PM »
I am afraid that Miner 49er is right, and it is not just on this forum.  I used to shoot the Muzzle Blasts (NMLRA) monthly postal shoots until they went away, mostly for lack of participation.  And other sites I have been on have closed down.  I see photos of various shoots and there is a sea of gray with very few young or middle aged folks in them.  Traditional Archery is not as bad, but there is a similar trend.

At the same time, I will participate as long as I can.  I also have responsibilities where I need to be home, but I can still squeeze out a few hours per month to burn some powder and the postal shoots are an excellent way to do so.  Carol encourages me to go, I think just so she doesn't have me moping around the house from not smelling that burned sulfur smell!   :laffing 

Anyway, I am grateful to Joe, Rob and Nessmuk for all the work they have done and certainly hope the shoots will continue, even if I am shooting offhand while everyone else is prone....
 :hairy

~Kees~
NMLRA Life
"All you need for happiness is a good gun, a good horse and a good wife." - D. Boone
USN June 1962-Nov. 65, USS Philip, DD-498

Dues paid to 02 Jan. 2025

Online The Miner '49er

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 360
  • Achieved 2020 Challenge / 4 year postal competitor
  • Location: OH
Re: Proposed Changes to the 2024 Postal Match Rules
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2024, 11:09:00 AM »
Another thought or two. Working with Nessmuk's several shooting positions there still could be a way to turn the postal shoots into a match. Whatever type target is to be shot, bull or rondy, each competitor would print just one each from the master targets that Nessmuk would post online each month. One of the master targets would be marked Sighter and the other Scoring/position. Each competitor chooses the position he wants to use and then fires unlimited shots at the Sighter until he's ready to shoot the one for submission. He shoots his five shots on the Scoring target, writes the position used and other info like date, caliber, etc. then posts it. If the Sighter is better than the Scoring, that's just the way it goes, can't post it. One and done, no cream of the crop silliness, and a real way to see how well you shoot. FWIW I believe while the multiple positions are a good idea and might be a way to include more shooters, I also think there could be be too much fractioning resulting in one or two guys in several categories. I agree with one guy here, I tried sitting with cross sticks once, four years ago, and it took me quite a while to stand up to reload. Never again. 😄
Defend the 2nd Amendment - If you can't fight for your rights, you don't have any!     "I was standin' at the toe mark on the 25-yard line, I was gunnin' fer' a 50 with my rifle Clementine."

Online LongWalker

  • TMA Contributing Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
  • Location: Nebraska
Re: Proposed Changes to the 2024 Postal Match Rules
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2024, 02:32:51 AM »
Sorry, just some random thoughts amidst a bout of insomnia.

Since joining the TMA, I've not shot the postal matches.  For many years I have been putting most of my flintlock time into teaching the class I jokingly refer to as "Intro to Flintlocks" (last year I managed to get 112+ shooters to spend an afternoon learning about and shooting flintlocks, and we might get a few new ML shooters from the bunch). 

But I don't see that bunch as being interested in postal matches as they have been traditionally run.  There are a couple reasons for this.  One big one is that may of them don't seem willing to put in the time and effort to shoot what--no matter how we arrange it--is essentially a bullseye match.  These are shooters who grew out of the era of action shooting: IPSC instead of bullseye, three gun matches instead of Camp Perry, and Second Chance.  Some other reasons are that the idea of a solo activity seems almost foreign to them, and that no one seems to believe the other shooters can be trusted no not game the system as The Miner '49er wrote (or even outright cheat).  There is no immediacy of competition, you have to wait til sometime next month to see how you did--and these are folks who aren't good at waiting a couple hours to see their standing in a tournament. 

I'm not sure how to address that.  One way might--mind you, I say might--be to figure out a way to get folks in an area together to shoot the postal match as a group.  That would require a fair degree of coordination, and might not even be doable.  If a way could be found for groups of 3 or more to meet up sometime in the month (to be arranged by them), shoot the postal match (and they could sign off on each others' targets). . . well, that might drum up some interest.

It would also allow for using some reactive targets that might get more interest.  I've been using old rotten red clay bricks at 100 yards as targets for a speed/accuracy/power demonstration as part of the class.  Five or ten bricks, set up at 100 yards or so, shot with full-power hunting loads: hit the brick right and you get a cloud of reddish-orange dust.  Lots of fun, and most of my students will want to give it a try after some familiarization with a flinter, but not a match that could easily be done as a postal match. . . . 

But Ohio Joe, LongWalker, and RollingB could arrange a get-together some Sunday afternoon, shoot the match (with each other as scorekeepers, and to restore some immediacy of competition).  Logistics would be a pain: there would be some serious traveling involved. 

Another option could be to arrange to have at least some of the matches done as part of the aggregate at local matches.  Not something that would work for everyone, but I know of several clubs that could be talked into this.  (Heck, my old club would casually add a match as a fundraiser for someone, or for variety, or even if someone just wanted to see how well folks could shoot their C&B revolvers at 100 yards.  All it took was asking, providing targets, and probably volunteering some time as a range officer, running kids' games, etc.)