Coned muzzle!

[SAWMA]

Was reading in the new muzzleloader magazine about coning the muzzle of rifles. Don't really understand how it helps with the accuracy, can anyone help?  Thanks!

[oomcurt]

The idea in back of coning is to make loading of conicals easier. As far as accuracy I don't believe it improves it. That is not to say it makes accuracy poorer, however, I had a renegade in .54 that was coned. I bought it used and its prior owner used it with conicals for hunting....from what he told me...accuracy with rb was not that great. I shot that gun for over a year in monthly shoots and I was not that impressed with its accuracy. Bottom line...I personally would not want another rifle with a coned muzzzle...but that is only my opinion...others may have great results with theirs.

[vermontfreedom]

Well, I can't for the life of me find it using the search function, but I posted a question about coned versus crowned barrels about 1 year or two ago. Responses there, particularly from Captchee, were informative. I'll try to reiterate from memory what was there.

Coning refers to a long (several inches) section of the bore at the muzzle end that as the name implies, is coned out. The theory is that (1) the ball starts a whole lot easier and (2) becaus the bore isn't caliber diameter all the way to the muzzle, any rubbing on the lands and grooves by ramrods and ball starters won't wear on the rifling, degrading accuracy. After all "accuracy lives and dies at the muzzle" and if you have dings or burrs, or other damage to the rifling at the last point it contacts your  projectile, then accuracy is likely to suffer.

A crowned muzzle is just that very short-- an eighth of an inch or so at the muzzle to protect the rifling at that point. I believe in the value of this and we're starting to see it more often on production centerfire rifles, especially match/competition barrels and varmint guns, but increasingly on everyday rifles. My Rice barrel in .54 is crowned.

I believe someone said there is evidence for coning on historical rifles. I personally believe that the THEORY is sound and should lead to greater accuracy, but this could only be tested legitimately by shooting a bunch with an unconed barrel, quantifying group size, then coning it and repeating the measures.

[halfdan]

I think it was the Fat Dutchman who made some statements about original rifles being coned. I think he said it was rather common.

Regards,

[oomcurt]

I guess there are several ways to look at this coning. I highly doubt that coning makes it easier to load a roundball...crowning would be better and....you aren't removing inches from your barrel that would make its accuracy less effective, imo. As I said...I had that renegade with a coned muzzle...at the present time I have two other rifles...neither is coned. One is a Navy Arms Harper's Ferry in .58 cal and the other is a Pedersoli Kentucky. I have no problems in loading round balls in either. I don't think there is a "standard" as far as how long a cone should be...Vermont Freedom mentioned several inches...that renegade I had was coned about 2 or 2 and 1/2 inches at the most. If...coning is done correctly, the bullet (not round ball) will enter the rifling straight without cocking, with out the coning, from what I understand, the bullet tends to "cock" itself off center.

[SAWMA]

I don't have the article with me, but he did say many original rifles were done this way. It made for loading a PRB easier, no use of a short starter, but it was just a small, or short section of the muzzle end that was worked. Sure looked pretty, kind of like a muzzle flower.  Thanks!

[Firewalker]

I think the Crowning you are referring to is "rebating or recessing" Smith and Wesson uses it on revolvers now. Crowning is cutting or polishing a slight bevel at the muzzle.
TC used a rebated muzzle with their quick-load barrels where the rifling was recessed about 3/4" or so down bore to facilitate loading.

[AxelP]

I have a coned gun and an unconed gun and the coned gun makes loading a snug patched roundball combo easier. I do not need a short starter. For the unconed gun I DO need a shortstarter for a tighter patchball combo.

As far as accuracy nothing short of a magic wand would make me a great shot. I am an average shooter based on my standing at the local shoots. BUT I have noticed no decline in my accuracy wiith the coned muzzle. Seems to me the gun shoots fairly consistent---its me that is the weak link...

Now, I have noticed that the more I shoot --the SAME gun, the better I shoot that gun. Time behind the sights, "makin smoke" is what is helping me be a better shot (not a great shot) with this particular gun.

Coning or unconing or "johnny whizbang wonder pills" dont seem to make it happen any quicker than plain ol fashion practice.

thats my experience anyhow.

Axe

[Stryker]

Coning was commom and I have seen one original that had the barrel coned. I have friends on both sides of the issue that say coning affects or doesn't affect or even improves accuracy. None of my rifles are coned, so I can't commit on the accuracy issue. I personally use another old time idea, I use an undersize ball with my rifles. I have to .54 that I use a .520 ball and a .015 thick patch and I can thumb start the ball each and every time.

[AxelP]

I think the coning idea was so that one can take advantage of the better gas seal of a snug patch and ball combo and not have to use a short starter. A better seal is supposed to create better accuracy. I hear that some target shooters actually hammer the ball and patch down the barrel... I have not done this as i am primarily a casual woodsrunner/hunter and have not tried such things.

I actually use a fairly loose ball patch combo myself for hunting purposes, but am going to try a bigger ball in my coned gun to see if it makes any difference in my accuracy. I still think its me and not the gun or the load that is the weak link in the quest for better accuracy.

Axe

[Flint62Smoothie]

Coning the muzzle . don't really understand how it helps with the accuracy, can anyone help?

It may not improve it one iota!  That is NOT what it is designed to do.  A crown, on the other hand, has a HUGE impact on inherent accuracy.

I highly doubt that coning makes it easier to load a roundball...crowning would be better and....you aren't removing inches from your barrel that would make its accuracy less effective, imo.

Please don’t confuse T/C’s ‘Quick Load Accurizor’ (QLA) with coning as asked about.  QLA is essentially a REBATED section of barrel, or exaggerated depth of a stepped crown (in a sense), somewhat larger than the bore land diameter, to load conical bullets, i.e., help load them straight.  See picture below.
 


[size=150]CONING:[/size]
I coned my barrels when I was running timed muzzleloading ‘primitive’ biathlons on wooden snowshoes.  No need for a short starter and to me, that is a BIG plus!  Even when not 'running' - I HATE short-starters.

Now, food for thought, history shows they weren't used ...now why is that ... ??  So, here are just some of 5 reasons ‘why?’ to cone a muzzleloader barrel (not of my own mind, but I agree with the man who penned them !)

1) You can load without a short starter, thus faster
2) It may make a rifle shoot more accurately (could have had a damaged crown) but if you follow the directions, it sure won’t shoot worse!
3) It removes the sharp edge of a crowned barrel, thus longer ramrod life
4) You can actually load a tighter patch/ball combo without cutting the patching on the sharp crowned edge (yes, even without the short starter)
5) It's an original, authentic way of dressing the muzzle of an 18th or 19th century muzzleloading rifle.

Here’s a write-up with pictures I had done a long while ago, using one of the long naval bronze tools machined by Joe Woods of the Firelock Shop.  You can reach him by email at "flintsteel at cox.net", substituting an ampersand for the "at" and removing the spaces ... this is prevent email/spam robots from getting his address.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Well now, I tried it on my Mowrey Plains rifle in 50cal and it sure didn't hurt the accuracy one bit.  Now, I am NOT in this for benchrest type accuracy, as I use this rifle for speed shooting in the primitive biathlons, even though she weighs a svelte 11 pounds.  With 3F, I can get up to 5 shots off without wiping the bore between shots (ambient weather dependent, warmer weather - less shots).  Using dry-lube patches ala Dwight Schutlz, I can load FAST and shoot all day without cleaning the bore.

Offhand, she'll keep all 5 shots in a ragged hole @ 25 yards and will do the same from the bench @ 50 yards ... my practice course is keeping all in a 6" bull offhand @ 50 yards.  Provided I follow through ... she'll keep them all in the black with ease ... it's just the nut behind the trigger that I sometimes have issues with (that "nut" is me ... BTW !)



I LOVE the ability to thumb the PRB into the barrel from the loading block while running the primitive biathlons or Seneca-type shoots!  Here's a small pictorial of the process using Joe's kit.

Here’s what you need to get started.  The tool and instructions from Joe, and then some crocus cloth/paper specific for metal cutting and thin carpet tape to hold it onto the tool.



Here’s the tool.  It’s an impressive piece of quality machining from bearing quality bronze.  Note - each tool is made unique to a caliber.



Here’s the tool as “wrapped” with the paper.  You can see that I coded each piece as I cut it from the sheets … marking the TOP, as it is wider to match the wider taper of the tool, plus the GRIT of the paper.  I made a bunch up ahead of time.  That groove is where the material being taken off goes, for best rersults, clean the tool frequently!



Here’s a close-up of the completed barrel.   Ouch … look at the scratches from cutting patches at the muzzle.  I did a re-blue job of the muzzle shortly after this photo appeared on my PC screen!   I thought it was interesting that a “lead” on one side of each of the lands showed up, but at least they all were symmetrical.



FWIW, an interesting side story, it turns out that Joe has THE original Allen & Thurber rifle that Bill Mowrey used to model the Ethan Allen replicas from.  The story itself is a hoot … but is much better told when Joe tells it!

Final results … for me … I lost no accuracy at all.  

[size=200]
Tight groups![/size][/color]

[R.M.]

Interesting. In the last 2 issues of Muzzleloader, there's been articles on coning, and their impression is that it can actually hurt accuracy. At least that was my take on it.

[Captchee]

Coning is pretty much what has been said above and can range from a couple of inches to  6 or 7 . Crowning is normally no more then 1/8 to 3/16 of an inch right at the muzzle
 Many folks just as  those have said here support coning . However the tools to do such a job correctly  , that im aware of have never been found .
 Some folks point to reamers as a possible tool of use , to me at least these are suspect .

I myself  do not cone barrels  and in fact will not , I simply do not believe in it  

vermontfreedom
 Is most correct , we had at one time somewhere around here  a very lengthy  discussion on this topic .
 As I recall  we even had  LC Rice  or maybe it was Getz ???chime in on the subject
 I seem to recall that he also  said that while they  can cone barrels and do.
  However if I recall correctly which ever one it was  said  that on his personal  tournament and  long-distance rifles   did not cone the barrels and would not .
Ill see if I can find the topic

[Captchee]

the main topic must have been on one of the boards we lost  when we were doing all the changes
 here is another from a while back though .

 some real good folks posted  back then . a couple  of them  have passed on, kinda gets a fella to read their words  and see their names
 

coned barrels
http://[url=http://www.traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.org/forum/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1322&highlight=barrel+coning]http://www.traditionalmuzzleloadingasso ... rel+coning[/url]

[FG1]

The coned muzzle IF done properly and concentric with the bore will have do ill affects on accuracy but can reduce velocity.The big IF is getting it concentric so the ball loses contact with the rifling at the same instant just as is the importance of an concentric crown.If tilted very so marginal the ball tilts off as it loses contact with one side and depending the amount of eccentric definition will define how accurate or inacccurate your barrel will shoot.

Now this is a bit out of context,but when Roy Weatherby come out with his magnums everybody and their dog was trying to copy his Freebored chambers and tout their own claim to fame.A lot of them did a bad job and got them crooked and had poor accuracy.
The same thing applies with the coned muzzle,if it isnt straight it wont shoot straight.

I think I'll stick with a short starter or just shoot a looser combo