Baker Rifle

[Puffer]

Old Salt wrote:
You and Sir Michael have stirred my interest in the Baker rifle.

What are the characteristics that make it so appealing to you? Was it manufactured in England?

 When will I see the numbers on the score card?  

Old Salt

Old Salt, I am going to answer these in the Flint lock section

Puffer
_________________
TMA CHARTER MEMBER # 133
 
Old Salt, before I answer the above, here are some ref.s you might want to check out.

"British Military Flintlock Rifles ', by De Witt Baily, Ph.D.
- Andrew Mowbray Pub. 2002 ( this book , IMO, is the best I have found. - Avail. from Track of the Wolf )

http://www.home.vinet.netau/~rifles95/rifle.htm
http://www.personal.usyd.ed.au/~slaw/SuesPage/baker.htm

YES the baker was made in England.

When I chose my persona, ( Capt. Can Rifle Militia et al ) I needed to arm myself & my men W/ a rifle. I had a Jager, that would have worked, BUT hey, I was a Hayden-Douglas & I could get the best. After researching it out w / Sir Michael's assistance, there was only one choice, the BAKER. Why ??.

1. It was the "GARAND" of it's day.  For over 40 yr.s, YES 40 yr.s ( the longest issued Rifle in history)  =D> It was carried by all British rifleman in every theater in the Empire.
     
2. It's one heck of a weapon. when I fired Michael's , I knew I had to have one.

It weighs over 9.5 lb.s But my favorite guns are "heavy"( Wt. a little more than my Tyron or Mortimer or my  Garand, M-14 or SOCOM16 for that matter)

As to targets, you'll have to wait awhile  :?  :?

thanks for your interest

Puffer

[Old Salt]

Puffer,

ThanKs for the link.  I'll look them over closer tomorrow.  

Do you know what American made rifle would have been concurrent with the Baker?  I'm thinking something from Harper's Ferry but I might be a bit early on the time line.

Maybe we can stir up a little British vs American model competition sometime in the future.  Ey?  

Old Salt

[Puffer]

Puffer,

Thanks for the link.  I'll look them over closer tomorrow.  

Do you know what American made rifle would have been concurrent with the Baker?  I'm thinking something from Harper's Ferry but I might be a bit early on the time line.

Maybe we can stir up a little British vs American model competition sometime in the future.  Ey?  

Old Salt

1st, I SCREWED up in my post , :roll:  :roll: should have read 40 years not 140. (changed it) :mozilla_oops:  :mozilla_oops:
 Will do, BUT what time frame ?? we have 40 yr.s to cover.  17 /

Puffer

[Sir Michael]

Old Salt wrote:
You and Sir Michael have stirred my interest in the Baker rifle.

What are the characteristics that make it so appealing to you? Was it manufactured in England?

 When will I see the numbers on the score card?  

 Puffer

Old Salt,

Just finished a conversation with Puffer.  He caught me up and let me know I should chime in.  So here Goes.

Why shoot a Baker?  Well, as I said in one post to my Intro thread, when I decided to get serious and get a rifle and start playing I wanted to do something different.  Coincidentally, PBS was running Sharpe's Rifles so I got curious about the Baker.  This was around '97 and it took me two years of e-mails and phone calls to gunmakers across the country before I finally found Jess and TRS.  It then took him about a year to build me one and I started shooting it.  I'm not too serious about my shooting but I do have fun.  I have tried a couple of times to work up an optimal load for it but keep getting side tracked.  I have found that it is capable of shooting a heck of a lot better than I can.  The folks I shoot with, Green River Mountain Men and Cascade Mountain Men bot shoot at 50yds and 100yds offhand with a limited us of Cross Sticks on certain targets.  On a good day I have posted 5 shot groups 3in across and 3-4 shot groups out of 5 overlapping or touching.  

When I first moved to this area, it was great fun shooting on new ranges.  Each time I stepped up to the line where the shooting was going hot and heavy and torched it off, the line would literally go silent and everyone looked my way and the questions would start.  It's nice being different.

A short history.  The Baker rifle as we call it was designed by London gunmaker Ezekiel Baker in 1799 in response to a request from the Board of Ordnance for a new Infantry Rifle.  His combination of lock, stock, and barrel proved to be the best choice over the likes of Samual Galton, Mr. German, Henry Nock, and Durs Egg.  It underwent a series of changes from the initial design (Pattern 1800) in Musket Bore (13/#) and Carbine Bore (20/#).  The most significant was the standardization to Carbine Bore and a series of other modifications to create the Pattern 1805.  This pattern remained the standard until another series of changes were incorporated for the Pattern 1823.  In 1835, after a series of ballistic tests and other evaluations, the Board of Ordnance determined that the percussion ignition was the way to go and although the experimented with converting Bakers to percussion the new winner was the short lived Brunswick rifle (w/belted ball).

My rifle (and I'll try to get some decent pictures to post ) is based on my persona.  It can best be described as a 20 year old Pattern 1805 that has been re-stocked, locked, and barreled several times.  It currently is fitted with an 1823 lock made at the Tower Armory and a first grade English Walnut stock.  At each re-barreling I had its original double rear sight remounted on the new barrel.  The last time I had it re-barreled in preparation for coming to the Oregon country in addition to the 1823 Lock, I decided to not have the new barrel browned so it is nice and shiny.  I also still have carry from time to time the 1801 Pattern Rifle Sword.  

In answer to your other question about a contemporary American military rifle, I've not researched the subject but I would venture a guess that the Harper's Ferry 1803 would be a good start.  If that is your bent, go for it.   :?  :?

Sometimes I think it would have been better if I'd have just bought a Hawken, a set of leathers and called it close enough.

 :-({|=

A friendly military match would be a nice break.  These mountain men can be get a old (pun intended)          Besides it might be fun to compare technology from both sides of the ocean without having to form ranks, volley, and charge.  

I'm still working on my kit and hoping that be next Rendezvous season I'll have a pair of New Land Pattern Pistols to exercise.

[Sir Michael]

Just checked out Puffer's photo post of his weapons.  

I know he is a provincial but, after all it is the 1820s and you would think by now he would have acquired a current flag of the empire.

[Sir Michael]

Almost forgot.

If your interested and you can't get Puffer's links to work, google:

Short Barrels and Long Bumpers and 2nd Battalion 95th Rifles in Australia.

[Puffer]

Just checked out Puffer's photo post of his weapons.  

I know he is a provincial but, after all it is the 1820s and you would think by now he would have acquired a current flag of the empire.

So this is what I get for asking an English "Aristocrat" to "chime" in. d'oh  Actually, Sir Michael is only 1/2 right ( as usual  [-X  ) the flag is pre 1820, actually changed in 1800. But the Baker load out is war of 1812 not 1820. Would you believe I chose this flag to signify the Birth" of the Baker. ;?help_sign  oh, well, the truth is I did not have the "new" one when I "posed the pic. :mozilla_oops:

Speaking of faw- faws What is your USMC sword doing in your Pic.
Think fast "good buddy"

  :off topic: Sorry folks,  [-o<  [-o<  the others of our crowd don't take our advise & join this forum. /  All but a couple, are free trappers

Puffer

[Sir Michael]

It has to be some where. /  /  /  /  /

And, our portrayal at Rendezvous is in the mid 20s.  Or at least mine its /  /  /

[Sir Michael]

BTW

Where is everyone?  Surely someone else is interested in this topic or I've managed to upset someone's sensibilities by now.         I do try     well, sort of .

[Wyoming Mike]

I have been interested in Baker's since I watched the Richard Sharpe series.  It's on my list of neat rifles I would like to have.  I have seen finished rifles on TOW occasionally with or without the bayonet.

[Old Salt]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the personal history.  

I was unable to get Puffer's links to work so I searched and found this.  It looks like the same link with a small difference.

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~rifles95/rifle.htm

"In the year 1800, the principal gun makers in England were directed by the Honorable Board of Ordnance to produce a specimen, in order to procure the best rifle possible, for the use of a rifle corps (the 95th Regiment) raised by Government. Among those who were selected on this occasion, I was desired to attend: and a committee of field officers was appointed for the purpose of examining, and reporting according to their judgement. There were also many rifles from America and various parts of the Continent produced at the same time. These were all tried at Woolwich; when my barrel, having only one quarter of a turn in the rifle, was approved by the committee."

"It was also remarked, that the barrel was less liable to foul from frequent firing, than the whole, three-quarters, or half-turns in angles of the rifle, which was considered of great advantage to the corps, particularly when engaged, as they would not require so often sponging out as the greater angles would, and yet possess every advantage of the other rifle in point of accuracy and strength of shooting at three hundred yards distance. For all these reasons the committee gave mine a preference, and recommended to the Honorable Board of Ordnance to have their rifles made upon a similar construction."          Ezekiel Baker  

What kinds of loads are you shooting?  What grain/type of bullet, how many grains by volume of powder?

[Ohio Joe]

Thanks Old Salt!  I was not able to open the other sites listed, but this one opened right up and there is some fine reading and pictures there!

I don't claim to be the smartest when it comes to barrel twist other then I understand the twists we use today; 1 in 48, 1 in 60, 1 in 66, 1 in 70...  However, I was puzzled with the Baker Rifles' 1 in 120 twist that was mentioned in this article?

Would a, "1 in 120" twist be on the negative side or opposite twist?  Maybe my brain ain't working this early, but wouldn't a, "1 in 100" twist be considered "straight rifling"

[Hank in WV]

The way I understand it, you would have one revolution of the projectile for every 100 inches of forward travel.

[Ohio Joe]

O'Kay Hank!  I reread that again and that make sense to me now...  As I said, the brain ain't working this morning for some reason?  Not enough coffee as yet I would expect???  Thanks!

[Uncle Russ]

O'Kay Hank!  I reread that again and that make sense to me now...  As I said, the brain ain't working this morning for some reason?  Not enough coffee as yet I would expect???  Thanks!

Joe, Don't make me come over there!


 :?

Have a "goodern"!


Russ...