Craftsmanship > Gun Building and Repair

Original(maybe) Double gun need help

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Sean McKown:
My buddy got a possibly original double shotgun. Hopefully it will be shootable.  I will take pics later but, heres a description: any input of on it would be appreciated.

SXS, caplock, 12 guage?(maybe though on the underside of the barrel, both are stamped 11),   bores look good, but left side has a ding in it, and also left side muzzle is dinged.  SOldered barrels look good with no gaps, and end is closed up good.  name on the locks is  William Moore(this is on both locks)   Breech plugs are screwed in, left side first, then the right, Looks to me this is NOT a soldered in unit like the one I got before, with the breech plugs being seperate.  This is 2 seprate breechplugs,  one RS is round,  LS is screwed in first, the RS is matched to it to look like one unit.

Overall looks in decent shape, bores are not shiny, but there is no pitting, outside is also in great condition.   Barrel is attached with one key that is pinned to avoid loss.

On th etail of the trigger guard is engraved Bernard Ruby,   also stamped in the stock is B A Ruby.   I was thinking maybe the origianl owner?     My buddy said it was made around 1892(but they no nothing about muzzleloaders, so im not sure where/how they got this info.  

 Captchee and Feltwad, thanks in advance for your help, as im sure I will hear from you two.

Gambia:
Sean

It is good betting that it is a Belgium gun stamped William Moore,images will help if it has English proof marks it is a 11 bore.
This name of William Moore is popular on sxs in the States and it was common practise for the Belgium gunmakers to put on a English name so they would sell there.
Feltwad

A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door

Sean McKown:
Does look like proof marks under the barrel, also  the initials  C H stamped ahead of the marking on the left barrell.

Captchee:
Yes there are a lot of Belgium guns out there . But to tell you the truth , here in my area , I run into far more English " birmingham" then Belgium , when it comes to original SXS muzzleloaders . We forget that  the English also had a very large trade in cheep grade barrels . Belgium   did not have a corner on the market when it comes to this type of thing .  in their credit though , even these seem to have been much more consistant in their make and quality of workmanship


Myself , I don’t concern myself with that all that much though . The real issues come later in the cartridge barrels . Even then  the issues are not so much with the barrels but the  hooks which  face the barrels  and hold them to the receivers .
  When it comes to muzzleloaders , to tell you the truth  both  counties of origin   breeched the barrels very much the same way  concerning the threads . I have seen just as crappy  of plug threads on English as Belgium .
 The proof of where it was made though  is in the  markings they  will tell the tail .

 Some day I have to get the  different  proof markings scanned into my PC  for posts like this .
As feltwad said , photos would be best  but if you cant get them  for a little bit , let  us know and well get the different markings posted . Or you could just discribe what your seeing for markings .

 He is also correct that  the names on the locks mean little . Though most times the imitations will just have a last name . many times misspelled . But again , this was done a lot more  in the late 19century to early 20th entry

Is there a Number engraved in the  back tang of the TG ?

The 11 is the Bore  .  I have seen these m especially on English pieces  were they don’t match .
 I  find this odd but even  the  Manton that I was aloud to inspect at the Cody museum had slightly mismatched bores . And no felt wad they were not stamped . I found this when I mic’ed them .
Was this from shooting or was it  just aloud to be this way ???  Who can say but  I have seen more then a few originals this way .

 The breech plugs could have been done several ways  . But most times  the smaller turns inside the larger  with the larger being  made from one piece .
Dents in the barrels are not  a real issue . The big issue is if the barrels are tight . They can look tight but  not ring true . So be sure to ring them ..
 They should make a nice ding  sound. On that note one of the tightest sets of barrels I have ever came across is on a Belgium piece that I own  .  The actually ring so true that  it hurts your ears  . They register very true  on my fiddle tuner .
 also sight down the center rib . if you see an ary that slightly raised , this could mean a bulge under the rib or an area  of rust thats starting to lift the rib . it can still be tight but  still have some damage .
 but again , the higher the tone of the ring , the tighter the barrel set is .
 Next check the bores . Drop a light down them . Look for large areas of pitting .
 Many times if the barrels are still thick at the muzzle , they can be  reamed out  and then re honed  to clean them up .
 The dents also come into play here  so while your looking , see if you can see the dents in the bore . I actually am working on a piece  right now where the barrels had been cleaned out  and the dents do not enter into the bore . This tells me the bores were cleaned up once before  with the dints not being removed prior to freshening the bores .
Not uncommon considering the  people who worked on these pieces here in the  west in the time frame of this SXS  

 Now  if the  bores are real bad  inside , they can be sleeved  also not a big issue IMO .
 But  myself I would try to clean them up first if need be  , before I considered sleeving them .

 Now to muzzle dings .
 I had an interesting conversation some years back with Bill Brockway .
  We were discussing this and he told me that  at one time  some smiths used this as a way to regulate patterns.
 I found this odd ,  as I thought it would effect the loading . Bill assured me however that it did not . I have tried this and found that in fact it does work to   shift a pattern considerably . Now we aren’t talking a   smashed barrel here  but just a ding at the  edge of the muzzle .

 I would however take it out  and only replace it if its found to be needed .

So  I guess we will wait for some photos , or descriptions of the  markings on the barrel

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