Conicals in slow PRB twist?

[Captchee]

rolling B  i submit to you this .
workin up a load is one thing . applying that load is completely another .
 even if your rifle will hold a sigle hole at 100 yards  with 5 shots , if you cannot hold that off hand  then your  patern is going to travel .

 growing up there were basicly 2 types of shooters . those who sighted in for hunting and those who sighted in for target shooting .

 those guys could hold a single hole with thier centerfires when benched  for a great distance . but strugled to hold a group on a paper plate at 100 yards off hand .

 but those who sighted in  on paper plates  holding a group  off hand , always tightened their group when it came to the bench

 my rifle shoots true . i know for a fact it does . its just that i cant hold it as true off hand .
 but i can tell you this much with all certainty . There is no doubt in my mind that  if a person size target took off running  and made it to 300 yards my Hershel house rifle  with me holding it  would lay that target  to rest  90% of the time ."humanly speaking LOL " big game i would never try that .

 With that conical I showed above , I have never not placed  one of those conical  through the kill zone  through my slow twist barrel  

 Shooting off the bench will tell you what the rifle is capable off . But  shooting off hand will tell you what your capable of .
 that’s why 99.9% of all the shooting I do is off hand . If I can place  a shot in the pickle barrel off hand  I sure should be able to  pin point a pickle when benched  

[mark davidson]

Whew!  OK, I feel better now, ignorant but better!!  I always practice from the field positions I might shoot from while hunting. However, I do absolutely demand to KNOW that my rifle will do its part if I do mine. For me at least, I need to KNOW that by shooting and load testing off the bench. I doubt if many if any of us shoot as well in the field as we do from the bench. Therefore, a gun that shoots terribly off the bench is likely to be worse than terrible in the woods under pressure and with cold hands and a little shiver going on.  Thanks for the information. If I can find some short minnies like the ones Captchee pictured above I will try them and see what happens. Everything to gain and nothing to lose by trying them! :-)

[Captchee]

thats what its all about . find what works for your rifle and spend some time working a load  to see what the best  it will achieve is .

My rifle i got used  in 1991 . it was built back in 1970ish .
 when i got it  the fella handed me a box of those minies and said here is the charge . i still have that box and that small peice of paper still sets ontop of it

[mark davidson]

Captchee, Thanks again so much for your input. Do you know of a particular brand or type of conical that TOW or someone might have in stock that I might try to start with in an attempt to duplicate the fine performance you are getting?

[rollingb]

Captchee, I'm an off-hand shooter/hunter myself,.... but as Mark says, any rifle/load that shoots terrible off the bench is going to shoot even worse off-hand.

First thing I do with a new rifle, is "bench it" at 100 yards, and if it's not shooting sub-2 inch groups at that distance then I start tweeking my loads.

After benching my rifle and working up the load it likes best, and "setting" my sights,... I know that any time I miss what I'm shooting at,... it's "my fault" and NOT my rifle or load.

I've seen guys that were pretty good off-hand shooters (on paper), but were terrible shooting from cross-sticks.
When they tried benching their rifles they found out WHY "that is".
I call it a "controlled flinch" which actually seems to help some people who "sight in" off-hand, and "shoot" strictly off-hand,... but might be as much as 18-20 inchs "off" dead-center at 100 yards when benched or shooting off cross-sticks. :shock:

Any rifle/load that is benched properly, will reveal any faults a "shooter/hunter" has, whether it's poor breathing, jerking the trigger, flinching, and etc. simply because any error with rifle, sights, and load, have been removed from the equation.

I had a friend in Alaska, that hunted moose with his Lyman GPR and lead conicals, and I thought the "rainbow trajectory" of his load was AWFUL, and it was,... compared to how it shot PRB's.
The last I knew, he still hadn't got a moose with his conical-loads and had went back to roundballs.

I also think, that with a gun/load shooting over-sized groups at 100 yards, pretty much eliminates taking an occasional grouse at 15-25 yards (with head-shots) when out hunting bigger game. (I used to do that, just so I'd be garuanteed to have something to eat at the end of the day.   )

[Captchee]

nope  im sorry i dont . thats why i mentioned i have to  have  a mould made for this conical .
 now tow does sell a Lyman  bullet one thats close  to what i shoot
 but i tried it in my rifle and was not satisfied at all . the base isnt as deep . it also has one less lub crove in it .

 Lee makes one they call their Original minie  but its wight was 20 grains less then the ones i have  again depth of the  hollow base .
I would like to try the parker hale  minies  but Lyman only has them in 58 cal  . but the design of that bullet is very close to what im shooting now  .
 but i have come to the conclussion that  the fit is the key .
 i think what is matching with my rifle is the conical has a deep soft hollow base . combined with  they type of rifling in my barrel it works .
 so i guess i would say try a hollow base  to start with , see ow it shoots . dont go with a real long bullet  eather . you simply dont have the twist to stablize it  at longer distances .

 i wish i could tell you why it works ? i just dont know . all i know is that in my rifle  i get acceptable results at the ranges i shoot

  anyone here know the rate of twist  of the 1853 Enfield ,can we say 1:78
 in fact from what guys have been telling me "i dont know " but  they have been saying that   the enfield is capable of sub 2 inch froups at 100 yards ?
 the enfielsds also have  alot smaller rifling . thus i have to ask  if the case is  that  a slow twist barrel will not stablize a  large heavy conical , then  how did the enfild do it  with a slower twist and a 500 grain projectile ?

[Captchee]

i had to go back and find this . so im sory for the additional post .
 but when i was thinking of shooting the enfild i had  i wanted some information on their accracy concerning the slow twist and very light rifling .
a person i ask the question to sent me this link .
 hope it gives you something to think on and maybe work with

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:AR1W97h7I-cJ:castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D38029+1853+enfield+accuracy&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us

[mark davidson]

Thanks again. If anybody reads this I could use one small favor. I need the phone number for Green Mountain barrels. My darn computer has a filter today that will not let me pull it up and get their number. If some of you kind folks can do that for me and post it here I would be grateful. :-)

[rollingb]

603-447-1095  

[tg]

If by chance you cannot find one of the modern connicals that are offered that will do what you want, the PRB will group well and is enough for Deer/Elk/Moose at  the ranges that primitive fixed sights will allow a good sight picture. For some reason the PRB is very underappreciated by some for hunting but has proved itself time after time for several hundred years, good luck where ever your journey takes you.

[Captchee]

will all i have said here , i must agree with TG , there is NOTHING wrong with a good tried and true RB .
 myself  and i dont know how many times i have said this before  but ill say it again .
 i chose a conical becouse of where i hunt elk  not becouse it will not work and work well for elk .
 i do not use conicals for deer or elk down in the flats , i simply see no need.
 but lets try and remebers folks that this  person  is not asking about that  and while that may be many of our prefrences . we should have enough respect to answer him  based on our own personal knowage .
 im not sayting anyone has not done that , i think everyone has  so 2 thumbs up to you all

[mark davidson]

Gentlemen, I do appreciate your answers and as Captchee said I also appreciate simply answering my question. Now if enough of you want to really know my experience and reasons for being so interested in conicals I will be happy to share. However, I intentionally left that part off out of respect for the traditional interest in the PRB. It's a can of worms and up to you all if you want it opened here. :-)

[tg]

Nothing wrong with useing connicals, it is however a stretch to call the modern designs "traditional projectiles" that is where the rub usually comes in, several years ago I e-mailed or wrote to as many connical producers that I could find and none with the exception of those who make a minnie ball replica , a Whitworth, and the picket type would make any claim to have used anything from the past in the process of R&D of their type of connical, that pretty much sums it up, if the manufacture will make no claim that their bullet is a traditional type, it is pretty hard for us to make susc an assumption, nce again the vast majirity are niot bad just not traditional.  just a matter of homest classification based on facts not personal preferences.

[mark davidson]

Everyone has his own real reasons for shooting these wonderful guns and we should respect to each his own. My interest is soley in hunting and shooting deer, several of them a year actually. I want to do it with a flinter, an old world type weapon that pleases and speaks to me. On the other hand I want that flinter to very effectively smash bone and kill with authority always resulting in a quick humane kill and if applicable a good blood trail as long as I do my job and place the projectile well.  I could respectfully care less how "traditional" the projectile is that comes out the barrel of my flinter. I do very much care how it performs in real deer. Therefore, I am now pretty interested in getting my gun or some gun to shoot a big heavy conical bullet well. I do not want to go all the way to perceived sacrilege and shoot saboted pistol bullets out of my flintlock!!  However, I do want a big ole lead minnie or maxi or buffalo bullet or something that will really excell in penetration and killing power.

[tg]

" I do want a big ole lead minnie or maxi or buffalo bullet or something that will really excell in penetration and killing power."

This is done with a PRB by many evrey year, I have no intention of changing someones  mind who obviously does not understand the potential of the PRB and its long history of usage, I only hope to offer those  newcommers that may be in the wings a chance to aquire some knowledge and make an intelligent, informed choice when they decide to take their ML afield after game, and  get the most enjoyment as possible from this great sport, and leave the centerfire ballistic mindset behind with the modern guns where it belongs.  Hopefull for those who cannot take game with the PRB there will soon be a high powered straight necked rimmless cartridge that can be loaded from the front and extracted from the breech , thus being leagaly a ML yet have all the advantages of the 30/06, this will "killem"  real good.