Traditional Muzzleloading Association

The Den - Members' Library => Resources => Topic started by: Uncle Russ on March 09, 2009, 04:50:01 AM

Title: Practical Comparison of Goex, KIK, and Elephant Powders.
Post by: Uncle Russ on March 09, 2009, 04:50:01 AM

There seems to always be the question of, "What is the best powder for my new Riflegun???"
 
Here is a Practical comparison of the three most popular powders done by 4 unbiased individuals....you decide which might be the best for you.

http://www.norwestcompany.com/comparison.htm (http://www.norwestcompany.com/comparison.htm)

Uncle Russ...

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Post by: Ohio Joe on March 09, 2009, 06:54:35 AM

I've seen these charts before Russ, they are interesting.  Each powder at one time or another had its advantages.  Though the Elephant (to my knowledge) is no longer made.   I did use some of
the Elephant powder when winning a can here and there at Rondy's and shoots, the 3fg wasn't bad.

I still know a few folks who have some Elephant powder they are still using.  They must have bought a ton of the stuff?

I've often thought of giving the KiK a try, but then I ask myself if I want to work up new loads to re'zero all my rifles because of the higher burn rate over Goex.  The answer is usually that I'll just stick
with the Goex.

It would be nice to see how the Graf Powder stacks up.  I wonder if anyone out there has any numbers on it?

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Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on March 09, 2009, 03:05:28 PM

As usual russ has found thought provoking information. I can't add any side light as I've only used Goex. I may have mentioned that I found a full can of DuPont 3f in a thrift /antique store near Parker S. dakota where my youngest daughter lives. He was selling the "can" as a collectable and cared nothing of the contents. For &3.00 I figured i couldn;t go far wrong. I've burned up about half of the can and tried to compare its performance with the 3f Goez I shoot . I would have to say it appears to have a little more oomph for the same loads. I also believe it leaves more residue. One thing it does show is that the shelf life of BP is LoooooNNG. By the way? anyone want the can for a collection??

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Post by: cb on March 09, 2009, 03:12:27 PM

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The KIK imported by GOEX had some serious accuracy problems.  In my .45 and .50 ml rifles it could not match GOEX or Elephant for accuracy.  It did give a more manageable bore fouling compared to the other two powders.  At that time it was faster than either GOEX or Elephant.  But since that time GOEX has raised their velocity a good bit over their 1999 and 2000 production powders. The KIK in bp cartridge rifles showed accuracy problems.

Unless you can just one can of KIK to test you could be taking a risk in buying any quantity of it.  If you are not willing to take that risk I would suggest sticking with GOEX.

KIK-Kamink in Slovenia is in bankruptcy so how long the KIK will be around is anybody's guess.

per Mad Monk aka Dutch Bill
FWIW - I asked the above on the ALR site and got the quoted answer - MM/DB is an acknowledged expert on BP having been in the business as a chemist for some years....

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Post by: Uncle Russ on March 09, 2009, 03:46:13 PM

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MM/DB is an acknowledged expert on BP having been in the business as a chemist for some years....

I totally agree cb, if anyone will know about Black Powder, it will be Bill Knight.

Bill has studied, and worked with Black Powder more than anyone else here in the U.S.....In fact, he is the "official" Federal Government Consultant in the use and usage of Black Powder.

And, on top of all that, he is just one heck of a nice fella!

I have been reading Mad Monk's writings since I got my first computer, back when "Prodigy" was the server of choice, and shooting material was very limited on the so-called Internet of the time....it's actually kinda sad that I have not been able to retain more of what I've  read during all those years.

Uncle Russ...

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Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on March 09, 2009, 07:18:53 PM

Somewhere in the archives of past posts we have a long and in depth consultation by Bill Knight . I made a hard copy and if I find it i'll post it here.

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Post by: Voyageur on March 09, 2009, 07:30:32 PM

8)  "Doc"

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Post by: James Kelly on March 28, 2009, 10:39:43 PM

I like Swiss.
More recoil, which I ass-u-me means higher velocity, than the same charge using my lifetime supply of du Pont.
NullB priming gives faster ignition than does FFFFg du Pont, in my admittedly limited experience with it.

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Post by: Bigsmoke on March 28, 2009, 10:48:07 PM

It was my opinion that the initial batches of Elephant indeed were the dirtiest of the dirty.  It complete re-defined fouling, that's for sure.
I think it was in 1999 or 2000 they reformulated and were using a lot more graphite and it really cleaned up.  I prefered it for the big bore guns with Fg powder.
KIK, never tried it, don't care to.
Lido, I wouldn't even load it in Beaverthing's rifle.
Swiss is good, but I don't see it for the price difference.
I will stick with GOEX, it's worked for me for 30 some years, don't see any reason to change now.

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Post by: Loyalist Dave on March 30, 2009, 12:13:56 PM

Yep I hated Elephant for dirty powder.  I was going to point out that GOEX is American, while the others are imports, and no telling what will be banned for import in the future..., but as many of the companies are going belly up it may be a moot point.

LD

Title: Graf powder
Post by: Iktomi on April 11, 2009, 11:39:07 AM

I ordered a couple of pounds of Graf FFFg along with a couple of goex FFg  and have been shooting them side by side for comparison. In my .54 GPR, a 95 grn charge of the goex shoots to the same POI as an 85 grn charge of the graf with same ball/patch combo. I had heard the the graf might be dirtier, but my observation was exactly the opposite. Shooting the goex, at even a lighter charge, I'd get 3 shots before I needed to wipe. At the 95 grain charge, I could load the second shot with difficulty, and have to wipe the bore every other shot. Suprisingly, with the Graf powder in FFFg, I could put together an 8 to 10 shot string before swabbing the bore. MUCH easier loading , and the damp patch would come out with less residue than the goex patch would after only a couple of shots. Plus, it's cheaper. My experience only, YMMV.

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Post by: Mike R on May 14, 2009, 11:08:23 AM

I started out shooting only the old DuPont powder--which many old timers thought was the standard.  I had to move out of state back when I had a stash of it and I gave it to a buddy rather than worry about shipping it [the movers wouldn't handle it and my vehicles were jammed already]--then I could get no more as DuPont quit making it.  For awhile I could not get GOEX and bought 3 cans of elephant--after a few shots gummed up my rifles so much that they wouldn't fire, I gave that stuff away too.  Been shooting Goex ever since and to be honest I cannot see much difference between it and the old DuPont.  I have not had access to any of rhe popular imports like Swiss, etc...

Title: powder
Post by: Gambia on May 14, 2009, 12:13:21 PM

There is such a thing as personal preference and it is extremely difficult to get a completely unbiased test of almost anything.There are so many variables in any test of black powder [barrel,patch lube,temperature,humidity,elevation and on it goes any test is only specific to the equipment,material and conditions prevailing at the time of the test.The point of this?Shoot what works for you,never mind the experts or the tests.[I have a bias about experts because as as an Prof. Engineer I have experienced some real fiascos by experts,not to exclude the current financial mess,I am sure the powder expert referenced above is very capable and I am in no way questioning his ability or integrity] However if the powder ball patch lube gun combo does what you want and expect it to do use them.I am by nature inquisitive so I have over time tried about anything that came down the pipe, now and again I found something I liked and used. As to powder, again I have tried most all of them that have been available during the last 60yrs and I have a personal preference mainly due to the fact that my muzzleloaders are dialed in to a specific patch ball powder lube combo that suits me and I am too old and lazy to change.

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Post by: doulos on May 14, 2009, 12:24:21 PM

Ive been using some Kik 2F and comparing it to my usual Goex 2F.
Out of 2 of my hawken rifles (A pedersoli.54 and a Custom Stith .58.) I haven't seen any difference in accuracy .  But I have noticed a definite difference in fouling.  Goex produces a much softer fouling allowing me to load much more without cleaning. KIK seems to produce a very hard fouling right at the bottom of the barrel near where the powder was sitting a little higher than loading depth. It might be a very useful hunting powder because of the higher velocity but at the range i like Goex better so far.

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Post by: sse on May 14, 2009, 01:04:27 PM

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KIK seems to produce a very hard fouling right at the bottom of the barrel near where the powder was sitting a little higher than loading depth.

I often get the same with GOEX.

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Post by: James Kelly on May 14, 2009, 02:32:05 PM

Seems to me this comparison ought to include the Swiss powder, which is actually available. I added a few cans of Swiss to my ancient stock of duPont mostly because of what I've read from Evil Ogre/Mad Monk/Bill Knight. With respect to granulation, Ned Roberts seems to have preferred the coarse grain in his rifle, even Fg I believe.
Wish I could say I've shot enough to have formed an opinion of my own.
But, after 1/4 century away from black, its been enuff just to figure out how to load the Modern Shallow Groove barrels of my Pedersoli rifles.
Anyway I suspect a more appropriate comparison these days would be between GOEX and Swiss.

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Post by: vermontfreedom on June 05, 2009, 09:57:52 PM

soon after I joined this forum, I made a couple of posts with a bunch of data from my .54-cal flintlock, 44-inch Rice barrel in 1:72 comparing velocities of 0.535 PRB using some loads of FF from Goex, Schuetzen, Elephant, and Swiss.

A more recent post including KIK is here http://www.traditionalmuzzleloadingasso ... php?t=8719 (http://www.traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.org/forum/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=8719)

I can't seem to find the original posts even after a thorough search in the "search" box - I think the posts were before TMA migrated to a new host and maybe the posts didn't carry over?????

Anyway, all my velocity testing is with an "F1 Shooting Chrony" placed 10 feet from my .54's muzzle so my data wouldn't apply to any other rifle, but perhaps the pattern is discernable.

I won't repost the data here, but if you or anyone would like that data, I can send it to you in an Excel sheet or a simple summary.

Bottom line from my testing for my gun: Swiss is the best powder for velocity at a given volume and least amount of fouling. Goex, Schuetzen, and KIK are about dead even in all respects: velocity, cost, fouling. Sometimes I'll shoot the non-swiss stuff just for kicks, but my hunting and 90% of my practicing is with Swiss. My wife uses the other stuff in her .50 so at least it gets used. I hope to get a smoothie some day "just to burn up all the FF I have laying around"...

Because my .54 is 1:72 and perhaps just because that's what it likes, I have to shoot hot loads for decent accuracy. That's why I shoot Swiss: 80 and even 90-grain FF Swiss loads are accurate, 70, 75, 60-grain loads are not as accurate. To get the same accuracy with Goex or other powder, I have to shoot 100-120 grains FF, which causes a lot of fouling.

My 90-grain Swiss loads were about 1820 fps. Recoil was a bit steep for me (I'm sure bigsmoke would call me a wuss   so I dropped to 80 grains, found no loss in accuracy, and save 10 grains and some pain each shot.

I can achieve velocities with Swiss comparable to Goex/Schuetzen/KIK using about 15% less powder with the Swiss loads. However, if you're a penny pincher, the volume savings is not enough to offset the price difference because Swiss is pretty dern expensive.

VF