Post by: KHickam on April 29, 2009, 08:20:30 PM
What do you think?
Post by: Sir Michael on April 29, 2009, 09:07:29 PM
This could get interesting.
Post by: ridjrunr on April 29, 2009, 09:58:02 PM
Example:How many of us/you have gone to the field with no flint,just to see how hard it would be to fire that flinter consistantly with what rock you have available?Its hard to write what I am thinking sometimes
Good threadridjrunr
Post by: greyhunter on April 29, 2009, 09:59:14 PM
Post by: Three Hawks on April 29, 2009, 10:06:37 PM
Some of the common knowlege of today would stand us in good stead. Things like using soap and water to wash our hands with, treating water for bacteria, amoebas and giardia. The way bacteria and viruses work, avoiding infection and exposure to disease.
Other things like what wild things are safe to eat, what plants and fungi are useful medically and that sort of thing were in books of the time.
Like you said, SM, this could get interesting.
Three Hawks
Post by: cb on April 30, 2009, 02:49:05 AM
Quote
"common knowledge" of the time
Depends on what one considers common knowledge of the day - while a certain knowledge may have been common for one strata of society it may have not been for another:
Case in point, Osborne Russell had NEVER hunted before he went west in 1834.
Charles Larpenteur noted how inept he was at even the most "common" everyday chores required when building a trading post.
Many if not most of the men who entered the fur trade had little or no knowledge of proper trapping techniques or how to deal with NDNz. Even by as early as 1823, the Ashley-Henry 2nd expedition hired their hands rather than sub-contracting them as free trappers and the volunteers were so few that James Clyman had to scrounge men from "grog Shops and other sinks of degredation" in St. Louis to get enough men he only got 70 of the 100 advertised for and many of them deserted along the way - here's his description of those men - "A discription of our crew I cannt give but Fallstafs Battallion was genteel in comparison"
Those who survived in the west were mostly those who were quick learners, whether they had the proper pre-training has to be looked at on a case by case basis. Nat Wyeth is a good example of an easterner with little practical experience for his new found trade, yet he was a quick learner and earned the respect quickly of the "old timers"
So while we may have assumptions about what was common knowledge that knowledge may not have been quite so common as we think.......
Quote
Example:How many of us/you have gone to the field with no flint,just to see how hard it would be to fire that flinter consistently with what rock you have availableMany of them did not either based on the primary documentation.
Not only were thousands of gun flints sent west in trade, but there are several instances recorded of men of the day being found destitute and without even flints for their guns. IMO the idea that you can just pick up a rock is more of a rendezvous fallacy than fact - as always it's time and place dependent, but as noted the documentation does bear my statement out.
And loss of flint is only part of the problem faced - there are several period citations of powder being ruined to the point of being unusable and Robert Campbell wrote that ALL of the powder supplied to the 1827 rendezvous was of such poor quality that it was only by luck that it fired and the NDNz soon discovered this fact and used it to their advantage - more than a few mountaineers lost their life that year.
Post by: KHickam on April 30, 2009, 08:48:44 AM
My "job" entails daily physical work (not hard work) but I have to work dogs on a daily basis both from foot and horseback - I spend lots of hours on the back of my horse. Most of my life has been spent out of doors - at least some of the day.
I have guided wild bird hunts, I have guided duck hunts - I have survived soakings in deep, cold, fast moving water - I have waded waist deep in water (sometimes with waders - sometimes without)
I have maintained a level of physical fitness (I run 2-4 miles a day - 3-4 days a week) that allows me to do all the things I must do in my day to day job of professional dog training.
What skills do you think would be lacking in the average muzzleloader enthusiast that has been at it for a few years? I realize it is a case by case basis.
"We would be woefully untrained in the even the basic skills they possessed even the most hard core AMM folks IMHO. " Sir Michael.
Perhaps - but I would think the fur brigades would function like the modern day military - the old timers would take the new recruits and train them in the skills they needed. And most hardcore AMM/fur trade/longhunter types would have much of the basic skills already - As to age and physical fitness - I still believe most of us are in better shape at 40 than many in the 18th/19th century were in their 20s - physically and health wise.
Post by: Captchee on April 30, 2009, 10:44:08 AM
It took only about an hour to round up enough rocks that sparked sufficiently well to fire my rifle ..
The funny part about all that was I had used my fire striker to look for suitable rocks . Not tell I went to replace it , did it dawn on my that in the bottom of my strike a light back was a 2 inch by 3 inch piece of chert ..
I hunted for 3 more days with a hand made rock in my flintlock . I even harvested a very nice mulie buck as well as 3 or 4 blue grouse with my rifle .
I also know folks around here that only use their own picked up rocks . When kept sharp they work rather well . Neglect them even a little and they provide only a clatch .
I also have found myself with a powder supply that was fully wet . I fell in the D@$ river . It took near a full day of digging powder out of the horn and spreading it on skunk cabbage leaves to dry in the sun , before it became usable again
SO, I can attest that these things are no myth . Maybe more difficult in some areas then in others . But minus being out in the desert somewhere , I can think of no more difficult place to look for sparking rocks then on top of the hells canyon rim .
Myself I would have to agree with Michael in this . Not because what CB says also isn’t true . The writings say it is .
However what we don’t take into account is that we are different people today . The immune systems for most folks IMO are no where near as strong as they were then .
Now for some , that’s not true but for the average person I truly believe it is .
I also believe our bodies are not as strong physically as was the common person’s 150 years ago .
With myself , I grew up on probably a 98% wild game diet . When I went into the service , that diet consisted of domestic raised beef . For the first month I was deathly sick . What went in one end , , seemingly seconds later came right out the other . The doctors attributed this to a drastic change in diet . I have no doubt that if it had not been for their diagnosis, I would have crapped myself to death , LOL .
. The whole reason the human race has been so successful is because of our ability to adapt . Our brain gives us that ability . Past that , in comparison , we are very weak creatures in compression . Without that brain power , we would be much lower on the food chain .
In compression, while the writings show that men were gathered from taverns and such to fill the trapping brigades , we have to also I think remember that these very folks had a strong base of knowledge to grow on . They could to some existent fall back on that base . fewer and fewer today have that knowledge as they have grown up in a electronic age over a physical age .
While I think even some of these folks could reason their way through the initial hard times. I don’t believe many would . Most likely those would die fro exposure and starvation before they collected the knowledge needed . Now with a guiding hand , surly that survival rate would jump .
This leads me to the issue with environment and the stress of that environment. If we use the Corp of discovery as a case study ,. The thing we notice is that as they traveled across this country , their environment changed . in many cases , they fought to adapt . What was happening is that their knowledge and past learned lessons , in some cases being found un useful. What worked well in the east or plains , simply did not work at all in the NW and Rockies. .
Imagine if you will , the simple task of starting a fire .
We would think , no real issue right . However we could find ourselves very wrong in that assumption.
Mind you , this was the age of flint and steel . In itself it works very well and its easy to find a rock to create a spark . But what catches that spark ? In the east , its fire conks. But in the west , we don’t have them . So we look at char cloth . However this doesn’t seem to really come about tell just before the civil war. So other means have to be come up with and come up with quickly .
A good example of this would be our evolution today . To light fires we rely on lighters and matches .
However its surprising how many folks cannot start a fire with flint and steel . Even among those we would think experienced woodsman in today’s world .
Every year during one of our shoots , we include a fire start in the competition for scoring .
It never ceases to amaze me at the numbers of woods wise folks who cannot and never have done this . Once shown , they pick it up quickly and most when done , run right to the trader for a steel .
The Corps had to be in this same boat , do to a change in environment. Even the likes of sacaguwea
And drouillard may have found themselves in the same boat . Their knowledge base would have been around the flint and steel with possibly little knowledge of the bow and drill which had been left behind but for a few casses by most to include native peoples .
We also see this in same environmental issue in the hunting Prowers of drouillard when he reached the Bitter Roots . Now there is no question , IMO to the knowledge base and skill of drouillard . Infact even L&C state in their journals that without his skill the Corps would have failed in short order .
However notice that when reaching the bitter root range the corps started to starve .
The reason for this is drouillard had lost his knowledge base . He did not realize that unlike in the east , the game here , migrates to lower levels in the early winter months . Thus the area the corps would travel through had little to no game left in it . That no mater the quality of skill as a hunter , the pickings would be practically non existent.
If not for pure luck , they all may very well have died right there all from a change of environment.
We today do not take this into account . Even those of us here who regularly take trips to the woods in what we do .
We think ahhh I have spent 3-5 days or longer out with only a blanket .
Well im here to tell you that next time you do that , think a little deeper past the experience into the effects of that experience on your body . Look past the ahhh I can do it , into an honest assessment. Past the skills needed right to the hart of the mater ..
I can tell you this . I grew up in the mountains . I have spent days to weeks out , alone , with nothing but a rifle and blanket .
But a few years back , I took some friends , all in themselves , very woods wise folks .
The trip was late fall in a time when normally the weather was good . But we found ourselves at 7000 ft in a snow storm that dumpt near a foot of fresh snow over night . The temps drop near 0 .
On the surface we all seemed to suffer little . We were warm , we had a fire , we had food . No great issue .
We even went so far as to do a couple 3 mile hunting expeditions . But what was noticed was that on the second day , camp started to get rather quite . With folks being more content to just sit around the fire. So we started talking about what we were experiencing
To a one the main issue was straight. While we were eating good and seemed comfortable , we all were losing strength. Even those who had not gon out hunting were experiencing the same thing . We were burning more calories then we were taking in .
This naturally reverted to a much deeper discussion of a period context . None of us had seen any game in our hunts our food supplies could last for another 2 days IF we had to .
We could see the snow level about 2500 ft below us . What amazed me was that the conversation took on an almost un real realization, in that our store bodies energy became almost like the level of fuel in a cars gas tank.. To a one , we all agree , we could make it down , find food . But the realization that in order to do that would take just about everything most of us had left .
that’s when things got real quite . It hit us like a brick wall . Even though our vehicles were some ¼ mile away , if we had been back some 150 years , we would have been in a very bad way . The environment, despite what we thought was preparedness, was eating us up faster then we realized .
I could go on about this for a very long time and it seems I have so I will stop here and say this one last thing .
There are many levels in this hobby we do . Basically everything from the buck skinner level , all the way up to the AMM , period trekking .
But in most cases folks don’t look deep into the real issues . They look only at their skills that they think they need to survive. They say ;Yep I can do it .
But would those very people say the same thing when taken into a greater context . If the need arose , could those you hold dear make it . Your wife , kids , friends . Would you be willing to leave those behind ?
Are you capable of experiencing the possible consequences if you don’t ?
So next time you out , look past your skills . Take a real , realistic look at the effects on your body . Both physically , mentally and environmentally.
Are you tiered and dragging hind end when you get back to the modern vehicle that will take you the miles home . When you get home do you sleep . Are you stiff after a while . Are you irritable . Maybe a little melancholy . Then ask yourself what condition would you have been if that trip had been realistically weeks or months longer .Only by truthfully looking at these things as well as you skills can you draw a reasonable conclusion to the question of if you could make it or not ..
If you then say yes ask yourself why it was that many of the folks we emulate, found themselves at what we look at as a young age . 30-40 . Either dead or down living the life of a trader , guide or passing the harder days in a village .
Myself when I was ½ my age I can honestly say yes . I know this for a fact from the years in the military and days of my youth . I was tested by the blood , not the water .
But today , based on the times I have been out , I would say no .
My wife , I don’t feel would make it physically or mentally. As much as I love her , I don’t think she would make 2 months maybe even weeks .
Mentally I could not handle that . Physically , myself I might make the first winter maybe two . But realistically , I would have to say in all honesty , that would be a very long outside chance .
Folks those mountains are alive . They have their own ways and if your not capable in every way , to adapt to those ways . Those mountains have no remorse or humanity about them
Post by: KHickam on April 30, 2009, 12:03:25 PM
Post by: Sir Michael on April 30, 2009, 02:19:45 PM
A good example of what we are talking about is best illustrated I think by the "House" series developed by PBS. If you have seen any of them it is amazing to me what these people regardless of the era don't know and how much our modern experience paints what they do and how they act. Because of my particular period of interest I really liked the "Regency House Party" and the "Texas Ranch House" they were very educational. And I am well aware of how artificial they are but at the same time I believe they illustrate just how ill prepared we are to step back in time. Even though we think we well prepared.
Several things come to mind particularly when I think of period "common knowledge".
Language and patterns of speech as well as terminology and euphemisms. (Absolutely no one will have any idea what you are talking about in 1820 if you ask some one about his "frizzen" and when you tell him that your rifle is .62 caliber he will have no idea what you are talking about because his rifle shoots 20/# and when you tell him that you are having a problem keeping the flint in your hammer he will be totally confused since in his world the hammer on his rifle is the movable flat thing the flint held in the cock strikes. Addressing individuals by their first name could get you in trouble fast as well if you don't have a mutual understanding with person you are addressing.
I have a feeling that how we dress would also be a problem. Even in American camps I have a feeling that running around in shirt sleeves or bear chested would not be tolerated except under certain circumstances. In the British camps that could get you in real hot water.
How you behave and your deportment in today's society would in many cases also be problem for those folks and they wouldn't tolerate it.
There a thousand little things that we automatically recognize and react to because we grew up with them and picked them up over the years. If you've ever lived in a foreign country for an extended period of time you've experienced the transition necessary to fit in with their culture. Much is the same but you keep tripping over the little things even after months of living there. Take a close look a immigrants or long term transplants in our own country and you will notice after a while they do or don't do the little things correctly or at least the way you were brought up doing them.
Post by: Captchee on April 30, 2009, 03:27:07 PM
How many folks know today how to saddle a horse more les hitch up a team . While I would say we are for the most part more learned in our book education “ minus spelling and grammar for me LOL “ we have lost much of the basic everyday knowledge of old .
How many folks actually know how to trap ?
Growing up we trapped for fur . I can tell you all there is a lot of knowledge needed to be successful at that task .
What about hunting for hides as the long hunters did .
Today our existence is so far gone from those early times , that it would simply take time to learn . But there in lays the rub . Could a person learn fast enough to stay alive . I simply do not believe so unless they had help and guidance .
Simply a different time , with different cultures, challenges we probably would struggle to even understand no less accept .
As to being more physically fit ?
I would have to say we are not . The writings show this . Just since the civil war , today’s people on an average taller , heavier and less in muscle mass . If we look at the graves reports from those an earlier times we see people living with ailments and deformities that frankly today would put many of us in a wheel chair . Many of these were young people Eric and Illinois age . Its simply astounding what many of these skeletal remains tell us . Yet we know that these very people lived and worked hard tell the day they died . Most likely in pain un imaginable to today’s world
Post by: jbullard1 on April 30, 2009, 04:51:29 PM
My grandfather died at 58 from "Consumption" in 1963. I only barely remember him but he was a very tall lean man that could load 2, 10 gallon metal milk cans in his truck at the same time. He had a small dairy farm and also drove the truck that delivered to the local dairy.
I don't think I would starve to death for a while, but I hope I don't have to find out, at 6'-3" and 260 ish I like my food. Health issues are another problem with hypertension and the heavy use of salt in food preservation may bring about serious complications
Post by: KHickam on April 30, 2009, 05:31:03 PM
Horsemanship
Trapping
Hunting
Combat skills
tracking
Other survival skills
That does that have to do with the language you speak? I have read some books from the period and american english at a basic level is the same
I am not the most hardcore guy in the reenacting world but I have all those skills acquired throughout my lifetime.
I think many of the guys that have served in the military or those that have been in combat would have many of the skills necessary to make it.
Post by: Sir Michael on April 30, 2009, 06:00:21 PM
Quote
That does that have to do with the language you speak? I have read some books from the period and american english at a basic level is the same
I can't evaluate what you've been reading only my own experience. Original 200 year old manuscripts I've read are down right hard to read. Assuming that they reflect the spoken language of time just communicating could present a significant impediment to one's survival in that time.
Skills and knowledge alone won't ensure survival in a hostile world where the majority of the individuals one might meet are intent on inflicting severe harm or death. You will have to have one other thing you haven't mentioned here so far. The will to draw a bead on an individual you've never met and pull the trigger solely because of the way that person is dressed.
Not a pleasant thought but a part of the way of life then. The American way. The British on the other hand got along considerably better than the Americans did.
Post by: KHickam on April 30, 2009, 08:12:40 PM
Maybe the books I have read have been modernized as far as subsequent reprints, so I will give you that.
One thing that I know for sure - people adapt - they do what is necessary to survive - perhaps many of us would not adapt quick enough. But, many would.
One thing is for certain - It is very interesting to speculate - because we live in a modern world and no matter how much we wish we could - no one can turn back time.
Post by: Sean McKown on April 30, 2009, 08:21:13 PM
I am ex military, and have also gone through the 30 day SERE course, and Ranger school. 30 days of being a POW, or surviving off the land or a combo of that, really tests your mind moreso than your skills.
A survival sit is just that, survive UNTIL you are found. easy if you have the skills and proper mindset. even if you are tired and hungry
LOngterm or living you be thinking different ly. Preparing more food, perm source of water, more perm and sturdy shelter or cabin. so you think diferently. then you could adapt to the demands of society back then.
Post by: ridjrunr on April 30, 2009, 08:28:29 PM
But the original question was about how the average enthusiest would manage.Well, thats tough ,whats average? In my very short 1-2 yrs of this,I have met quite a veriety of skill levels.Some only want to go to voo to hang out and relax.Thats it.The other end I guess would be they who have lived this lifestyle there whole life,learning,studying and honing all skills related.Now,the first time I ever made fire with flint and steel was when Charlie and Daisy showed me about two years ago( thanx Charlie)but, on the other hand ,I ran a very profitable and efficient trapline by myself at about 11yrs of age.My only teacher was FFG in the school library.
My guess would be many would fair ok and survive, but perhaps more would not.So much to consider.Again,great topic.
ridjrunr
Post by: Captchee on April 30, 2009, 09:02:07 PM
Post by: KHickam on April 30, 2009, 09:49:34 PM
Do you think it is generational? The lack of basic skills needed to exist in a less modern world? Granted I am a child of parents that survived the Great Depression (father born 1922 mom born 1925).
I know I spent many hours in the woods and prairies - from the time I was a youngster - I was a serious bird hunter and semi serious big game hunter - I can't remember a season from the time I was 12 to the time I was in my mid 20s that I didn't deer or elk hunt. I remember lots of days when I would take my shotgun or rifle and hike 7 to 8 miles hunting birds or deer or elk. I have been out in weather that would be considered very dangerous - hunting. I fallen through ice and taken a good soaking doing so - course I survived and learned from that. I remember wading in November around Usk/Cusick in northern Washington setting traps - most times I had waders - but many times I didn't just to experience that as did the mountain men. Yes, I successfully trapped beaver and muskrat.
I ride horses hell bent for leather across the prairies every summer chasing dogs when necessary, - dodging badger and prairie dog holes - I never rode a horse until 2003 - but for 5 summers now I spend 4-8 hours a day 3-6 days a week. This ground (near the Grand River in northcentral SD) was traversed by Glass, Smith, Bridger and the like.
So, I am guessing my experience while different than some - feel that many hardcore or perhaps not so hardcore frontier types on this board or others - probably could do everything necessary to exist in the 18th/19th century - or at least as well as any newbie signing on to a brigade in 1825.
Post by: Sean McKown on April 30, 2009, 09:56:17 PM
Post by: quigleysharps4570 on April 30, 2009, 10:40:51 PM
Quote from: "Sean McKown"
I think its a whole lot dif for us that it would be for some yuppie
We would last longer anyway.
I grew up hunting, fishing, trapping and such...and can eat anything, but I wouldn't care to do it out in the elements 24-7 just to survive.
Post by: rollingb on April 30, 2009, 11:30:59 PM
Here's my opinion of this topic,.....
Most fellas back in the early 1800's signed up to work the trapping fields in whatever capacities the brigade leaders chose for them and largely based on their individual abilities.
Some of those young fellas had apprenticed under someone for the various "trades of the day", and some had no experience at all and just wanted to experience the western adventure and a chance to make their "fortune".
As far as surviveing the wilds of the mountains, let's not forget that those that went west, didn't just get "dumped" there overnight. They had some time to learn many of the needed skills (to survive) as they traveled with more knowledgeable leaders.
I think the initial trip to the mountains for those without experience, could be compared to "basic training" in our modern military services of today. Sure,... more skills were learned as they reached the fur fields, and some of the men learned and became more proficient at those skills then some of their unforunate compadres.
Looking at this topic from a "dietary" view,... the food changed as they traveled across the plains, which gave them thier bellys time to adjust to different foods (espeacialy buffler meat), and I think most of us today, would have little trouble doing the same thing given the same experience.
I have no doubt, that for some, "hunting and shooting" was also learned (for the first time) during their trip west, and they became proficent enough with both skills to have a reasonable chance at survival by the time they reached the fur fields, and I think many of today's youths could do the same thing (within the same time period) given the same opportunities.
We must remember, that the American brigade leaders (back then) were also "mentors" to the inexperienced men in their brigades, and everyday living in the mountains could be (kind'a) compared to today's survival courses, and those that didn't learn, or those that got carelesss, didn't last long.
Are there some of us today "tough enough" to do what those fellas did back then????,.... I have no doubt in my mind, that the answer to that question is a resounding "YES".
Although, my "days" of doing something simular are pretty much over (due to my age and health), I grew up with horses and learned how to take care of'em before I reached my "teens".
Shooting and hunting, just sort'a came "natural" for me at a young age,... and I'm sure many of today's youths can say the same thing.
I've always managed to eat "most anything",... and keep it "down" without any ill effects.
I started trapping when I was in grade school, and checked my trapline as I walked "to and from" school, everyday.
It doesn't take much time at all, to become profiecent "talking sign" (at least for me it didn't take long) and that WAS the universal language of the fur fields (whether a person was a trapper, or, a trader of the early 1800's).
Do I think I could've/would've joined an early 1800's fur trapping brigade (back when I was younger), and would I have been willing to "bet my life" that I could've survived????.... Yeah,...I believe so,.... and I think many other young fellas (of today) would have been capable also.
Post by: Captchee on May 01, 2009, 12:16:03 AM
But in all seriousness
My primary MOS in the Army was 11B. infantry for those who do not know .
My basic duty was a LURP or whats now know as an LRS today .
Do I still have the skills , I would like to think so . Though admittedly and most likely outdated .
Would I be as effective at my age as when I was 20 , nope sorry . Today if im lucky I could run a mile .
At one time I could run 13 to 20 every morning .
. Today im lucky to get out of bed in the morning . One wrong move or sleep a little wrong and im down for a day or more .
At 19 I could go days with little to no sleep . Spend days and in one case weeks with nothing but a worn out PRC77 and an almost dead battery strap to my back and still grow fangs and Charlie. Mike .
Shooting , that I can still do . Just this last weekend I took 1st in the aggregate out of 133 shooters . Scoring a 136, 3X out of a possible 150 total score
At 18 I earned the EIB . At 19 I was awarded by the German government , the Leistungsabzeichen . At 20 my EIB became a CIB .
At 20 LMAO….. I would think nothing of sneaking to within 2 ft of a Sandinista. Then taking a leak in his Taza . Laughing the whole time because he never even new . Well maybe that’s an exaggeration but you get the idea
Today I think twice about mowing the lawn LOL
I know my skills and I know my limitations very well . With full honesty I can tell you that while the skills may still be between the ears I lack greatly the mobility and stamina of my youth .
Hell LMAO I cant even get into my old BDU’s no less my dress uniform LOL
I wake up at night, sometimes for no reason other then something click in my head . A sound . My wife moves just so . Some nights I don’t even sleep . When the weather changes , my feet hurt to the point my toes will not move .my back gets kinks , my knees pop in and out .
My wife and I this July will have been married 19 years . To this day she doesn’t touch me to wake me up .
All that from being gung ho . Being all I could be and more .
Nope sir , I been there and done that . Its nothing but a thing . But it’s a thing that I know full well I could not , would not, cannot , nor want to ever do again .
I learned long ago that knowledge without strength is no better then strength without knowledge . One without the other , will get you to the very same place
As del Gue would say : same place as you Jeremiah ,,hell in the end
Now climbing a mountain , finding an old weathered pine . Sitting under its bows , feeling its warmth and listening to the wind . That I can do and will do tell the day I no longer can walk . Hopefully that’s where they will find me with a smile on my face.
but not to long ago ,,, i was a warrior . 200 years ago i would have stood with my people , of that i have no doubt .but today nothing feels better then a warm fire and a good smoke
Quote
the lord said ; Let there be LRRP's and the gates of Hell were opened
Post by: KHickam on May 01, 2009, 03:07:17 AM
Is it motivated by challenging yourself "can I do this." Or more in depth "I really want/love to do this."
Post by: viking-sword on May 01, 2009, 04:41:45 AM
I'm in mourning at this time, so to speak, as close to twenty years ago or so, I went through three divorces in five years, thought it was gonna kill me, but instead, I packed a chest full of living supplies (traps, powder, etc) up into the Wind rivers, to a place I found long ago, an old Indian burial place, that I doubt anyone will ever find, and buried my cache for the day when I could take no more. My plan was to sell off my whole life, buy horses and a mule and other such things, and disappear. Well, another women found me, sunk her claws in deep she did, and we are still going strong. I know I could still survive, for a time anyway, but hardened as I may still be, I don't know if I would really want too, I certainly no longer need too. In this day and age, finding good water, and enough food without bringing the law down on you, and then staying out of view, would pretty much take all your time time. I realize the time has past that I could ever realize that dream, and I hope everyday that nothing so tragic will ever happen in my life that I would ever consider that way out, yet a part of me still mourns for the loss of that chance, a guy can still dream can't he? I still have you guys and this forum! As for the burial ground? It's real, and will go to the grave with me. As of yet , it's never been found, I'd have heard about it by now if it had, so a secret it must stay. Wes
Post by: Captchee on May 01, 2009, 09:22:39 AM
Quote from: "KHickam"
So, those that are hard core frontier types - What motivates you to develop and push those skills?
Is it motivated by challenging yourself "can I do this." Or more in depth "I really want/love to do this."
well im not sure i fit your question , but i am more hard core them many , yet not as hard core as some .
for me i like the mountians a whole lot more then i care for the majority of people now days .
i also like History and being self sufficiant .
that in itself is an area that you never stop learning .
i also enjoy the study of ma haritage . something i wantingly neglected in my youth
i do my best
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/7%20Devils/Captchee20091.jpg)
Post by: quigleysharps4570 on May 01, 2009, 01:40:30 PM
Quote from: "KHickam"
So, those that are hard core frontier types
Wouldn't be seeing this thread on a computer...just my opinion.
Post by: Captchee on May 01, 2009, 03:21:06 PM
words of wisdom right there LOL
but in all fairness , not alot to do with the original question
Post by: quigleysharps4570 on May 01, 2009, 06:21:28 PM
Post by: mario on May 01, 2009, 07:47:57 PM
Age is a big factor. Hank Jr. said it best in "All My Rowdy Friends have Settled Down." Mileage is my biggest problem...
I'm only 31 and there are things that I can't do as well as I did 10 years ago.
I've lived without electricity, without running water, heated with wood while living on the edge of civilization for pretty long periods (over a year at a time). Ran sled dogs, tromped around period-style at -40F, ate over 5000 calories a day and still lost weight.
Could I do it again? Maybe. But I'd have to work my body back into shape for it and it would be painful.
As Sean touched on earlier, wilderness survival and wilderness living are 2 very different things. That is where most of us in the hobby would differ.
Most could rough it for a few days, maybe a few weeks. But for seasons or years?
Just MHO.
Mario
Post by: KHickam on May 01, 2009, 08:09:30 PM
But, by adapting to the climate and environment if you could do it for days or perhaps weeks - a season would come too. Humans when forced to are very resourceful.
There are period accounts of 40ish and even at least one 60ish frontiersman surviving over a couple seasons. Daniel Boone for instance is said to have made it to Wyoming in his 70s or 80s (legend perhaps?) but their is no doubt he was in his mid 40s when captured/adopted and escaped to warn the settlers of the Shawnee in his mid 40s! Reznor was said to be in his 60s and met his end in Capt Chee's country by indians!
Post by: rollingb on May 01, 2009, 09:50:32 PM
Quote from: "KHickam"
Now - I will give you credit in the argument that most of us are not hardened on the frontier or with super hard work with which the original frontiersman/trappers/traders delt with on a daily basis - but my experience in the Desert taught me that humans adapt physically to their environment quickly (so, I really don't buy the argument that physically we could not do it - although Capt Chee made the argument - perhaps not being able to adapt quickly enough)
But, by adapting to the climate and environment if you could do it for days or perhaps weeks - a season would come too. Humans when forced to are very resourceful.
There are period accounts of 40ish and even at least one 60ish frontiersman surviving over a couple seasons. Daniel Boone for instance is said to have made it to Wyoming in his 70s or 80s (legend perhaps?) but their is no doubt he was in his mid 40s when captured/adopted and escaped to warn the settlers of the Shawnee in his mid 40s! Reznor was said to be in his 60s and met his end in Capt Chee's country by indians!
I agree with the above post,... and I can also relate to what Mario said about living without electricity and running water, I lived that way in interior Alaska for a little more than 8 consecutive years while I was in my 50's (and thought nothing of it). It was probably easier for me (then some people) because over the period of my entire life I've only lived in a "town" for about 3 1/2 years, and that "town" had a population of less than 30 souls.
Could I go back and live in interior Alaska again under those past conditions???,... yep, I could but life (like that) would be a little more difficult now 'cause I've re-adjusted to all the modern convieniences again.
Post by: tg on May 01, 2009, 09:52:56 PM
Post by: mario on May 01, 2009, 09:58:33 PM
Quote from: "rollingb"
and I can also relate to what Mario said about living without electricity and running water, I lived that way in interior Alaska for a little more than 8 consecutive years while I was in my 50's (and thought nothing of it). It was probably easier for me (then some people) because over the period of my entire life I've only lived in a "town" for about 3 1/2 years, and that "town" had a population of less than 30 souls. :evil:
Mario
Post by: rollingb on May 01, 2009, 10:17:43 PM
Quote from: "mario"
Quote from: "rollingb"and I can also relate to what Mario said about living without electricity and running water, I lived that way in interior Alaska for a little more than 8 consecutive years while I was in my 50's (and thought nothing of it). It was probably easier for me (then some people) because over the period of my entire life I've only lived in a "town" for about 3 1/2 years, and that "town" had a population of less than 30 souls. :)
I might also mention, that the only "town" I ever lived in, was AFTER I moved back to Wyoming (from Alaska).
I grew up without electricity and running water,... and I can remember my folks getting electricity and their first "refrigerator" when I was 13 years old. :rotf ).
Post by: Captchee on May 02, 2009, 01:46:19 PM
Possibly
1 view of if a person with today’s knowledge found himself in the 18th or early 19th century .
A 2 view of if said person was suddenly transported back to that time . Within this we have a general population as well as a frontier or fur trade person
The 3 a consideration of if the 18th and early 19th centuries suddenly were propelled forward and people had to deal with those issues today .
Post by: Loyalist Dave on May 03, 2009, 11:13:18 AM
Quote
A good example of what we are talking about is best illustrated I think by the "House" series developed by PBS.
Well the series made me gag! Sorry, but I know for a fact that they chose people very heavily dependent on modern tech (city folk), NOT a random sample which would've (imho) been a better "experiment".
In Colonial House they mostly chose people who had never raised any edible plants, and that had conflicting mind-sets and world views. The woman who was constantly b!t#@ing about how she was treated was chosen because she was going to create problems. I understand that they didn't want living historians, but they omitted Boy Scouts and people with 4H experience too. I've never planted a field by hand, nor have I ever read how it was done, but after twenty seconds of watching them I had a better way of doing it and nobody would've lost a hoe as they did. <gag>
Frontier House omitted hunting, and claimed that "it wasn't hunting season"..., PBS anti-hunting agenda is what it was. How tough would it have been for them to set up a target in a random field at a distance from the "settlers", for short periods of time, and IF it was spotted, and IF they shot it and hit it, they could've then been given a 1/2 side of beef at the target location. It would've been nice to see the hunter race home, gather the settlement, and they all drop everything and race back to cut it up, get it home, and salt/smoke it before spoilage. (No..., couldn't do that...it might show hunting in a good light) I wished the fool getting married had sampled the run from the still as he took his bath as he suggested..., we could've then seen the effects of fusil oil poisoning.
In health and medicine a random sampling of modern folks would do better (imho) than the historic population, as we have a better grasp of sanitation. Throw in some good first aid, and the knowledge of vitamins, and health wise you'd be ok.
Use of tech is another matter. The frontier series showed that city folks with no lower tech training won't do well. OK so take a bushman from the Kalahari without his tools, and give him an apartment in NYC and see how long it takes for him to set the place on fire, get sick, get mugged, or get arrested. Not knowing the tech doesn't make a person "tougher", it just means a person is at a disadvantage.
As for physical toughness, yes I agree the folks of today do not have the pain threshold of days gone by. Included in that is the pain of hunger. Many don't have the tenacity to survive either, and would stop fighting the elements and/or the critters, as they would simply decide such a fight was hopeless. It's not a situation they have ever faced.
Strength wise I agree, the strength of folks back then was greater as it was something they had to develop through their whole lives.
Yet there are stories of modern folks trapped in their damaged cars after and accident surviving for several weeks, and don't forget there was the Uruguayan Rugby team with 16 survivors trapped in the Andes who survived after a plane crash and many days with only the corpses of their friends for food.
LD
Post by: rollingb on May 03, 2009, 11:49:39 AM
Me'n the family watched a bit of Texas Ranch House and we commented to each other (at the time) that they couldn't have picked worse people for the show. Heck,... the guy that made the ranch-decisions (actually it was his goofy bi^@h-of-a-wife making'em for him) was some sort'a "executive-type" from a big city hospital. :th dn
Post by: Captchee on May 03, 2009, 12:51:13 PM
as such we know better . however IMO depending on where you live , what you saw on those shows , may very well be a cross section of the majority
Post by: Spotted Bull on May 03, 2009, 01:27:11 PM
Let's say that something happened and we as a planet were thrust into, not the 18th or 19th century, but were left with no other resources in THIS century but what we could manage on our own. I am sure that this topic has been beaten to death, but would our world survive? Would the more "city-fied" folks come to folks like us to help them survive?
Post by: Uncle Russ on May 03, 2009, 01:49:57 PM
Captchee says...."you know the scarry part though is that people like us are said to be the minority."...
Then RB asks...." Would the more "city-fied" folks come to folks like us to help them survive?"
I would answer Yes, Yes, Yes!
Yes we are a minority, and you can bet your last dollar that when it comes to the real "push and pull" those more "City-fied" folks are going to be beating your door down just to learn how to plant and grow, how to dress Wild Game, and how best to prepare all this....all while keeping warm in some make-shift shelter.
They are "City-fied" because they want it that way, they recognize life is much easier, and requires absolutely little to zero out side effort.
They are motivated by money and the luxury & leisure it can buy....they're just different, they ain't stupid.
However, when the tables turn, and they are left with no choice, they will come, and they will come by the hundreds, and they will "toughen-up" as the situation dictates....the alternative will be obvious.
Just my thoughts.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: deadfallpaul on May 03, 2009, 02:29:16 PM
Quote from: "RussB"
Yes we are a minority, and you can bet your last dollar that when it comes to the real "push and pull" those more "City-fied" folks are going to be beating your down down just to learn how to plant and grow, how to dress Wild Game, and how best to prepare all this....all while keeping warm in some make-shift shelter.
............................................................
However, when the tables turn, and they are left with no choice, they will come, and they will come by the hundreds, and they will "toughen-up" as the situation dictates....the alternative will be obvious..............
Uncle Russ...
As a psychologist I understand human behavior quite well and that behavior is to take the easy route 99% of the time.
Changing ones lifestyle and perception of how to live does not come easy nor does it happen overnight. We are creatures of habit and old habits are hard to break.
I would agree with SOME of them EVENTUALLY learning some survival skills but I believe the IMMEDIATE response in a crisis situation for most of them would be to come to us, yes, but not to learn but to take what they can get from us.
This being by stealing, robbing.buying or whatever means they can.
Take for example NEW Orleans. The looting and stealing that occurred.
I, like so many others in this day and age, am prepared to meet this head on and protect what I have by whatever means is necessary.
Also like many others on this board I have the skills required to survive.
As I have mentioned here in the past I have trapped since I was nine yrs. old and did it in the 70"s and 80's to have an income while homesteading and raising 2 sons. Not muskrat trapping as a kid but running long truck lines and skinning 150 - 200 fox plus coyotes and then to the water line later for mink and 'rats.
This being the only income for my wife an I except farm chores for neighbors and whatever else we could come up with.
I presently live in a log cabin made from logs cut off the home site and heat with wood (which I have done all my life but for 5 yrs I was away).
I have a "bug out bag" (Alice pack) loaded with what I need to get on for a long time all packed and ready to go if T.S.H.T.F. and I have to move quick.
In a way a catastrophe like the one mentioned may just be what this world needs to "clean up the gene pool"!!!
THIS IS JUST MY NOT SO HUMBLE OPINION AND YOU ARE WELCOME TO BELIEVE ANY OTHER WAY INCLUDING A "WARM AND FUZZY" AND ALL WILL PREVAIL ENDING. :shake
Post by: Sir Michael on May 03, 2009, 03:00:20 PM
From the posts here it is obvious that many of us feel we have or once had the skills to make it in the Mountains in the 1800s. The argument is purely academic and relevant only for each individual who must make the determination on their own. For those that currently live "off the grid" who knows they don't have computers or contribute to the forum. However, their insight into what has to be done to survive may be of great interest.
I have seen a show that to me has to be the closest thing to "reality" on PBS and it was "Alone in the Wilderness" a video diary made by Dick Proenneke who retired at age 50 in 1967 and moved to Alaska, built a cabin and lived there. It is truly of value when considering this subject I believe.
Post by: Loyalist Dave on May 04, 2009, 10:47:20 AM
Quote
I have seen a show that to me has to be the closest thing to "reality" on PBS and it was "Alone in the Wilderness" a video diary made by Dick Proenneke who retired at age 50 in 1967 and moved to Alaska, built a cabin and lived there. It is truly of value when considering this subject I believe.
INDEED that is a GREAT movie, even though earlier versions (not shown on PBS) show him carrying his rifle more often than did the PBS airing.
I think, my opinion, if you took a random sampling of individuals from across the country, a few country boys or girls and a boy scout or two, would've made drastic differences in the shows. In Colonial House they should've put the feminist into the stocks for 24 hours without food or bathroom priviledges (hey they could've paid her extra for it) and then got her impression of what that was like. Captchee is right, they might have had a good sample, but my professor who taught me scientific method for sampling would've cried "FOUL" when he learned of their deliberate exclusions instead of random chance.
Quote
This being by stealing, robbing.buying or whatever means they can. Take for example NEW Orleans. The looting and stealing that occurred.Ah but remember too that the fools didn't loot food, water, ammo, medicine, candles..., they waded through waist high water to steal TV sets for a city that was without power!
They were not successful when they ran into armed resistance.
Remember Y2K??? I met a survivalist who said he'd simply take from his neighbors. I corrected him thus...,
In the first few days of an emergency like Y2K where everything is in place except electric power, the government will lie to the people to stop panic, and will say "It'll all be better in a few days". Then the government will maybe distribute some food and some water, and will say "It'll all be over in a week; at the most two." A person won't rob his neighbors in those two weeks, as it just MIGHT be over in that time, and the police will be by to collect the robbers, or worse the murderers who shot the neighbors for food. NO..., by the time it becomes obvious that the problem is long-term..., most of the neighbor's food and water (if they have any) will have been consumed. The cities will run out of food fast, and the people will then migrate outward.
Now when it comes to folks like "us" on this board..., we would (I hope) be prudent, and take a little vacation to the woods in a day or two after the event occurs, and set up a rather permanent camp, start canning veggies, and harvest and salt meat. By the time the neighbors think they should start consulting me, me and mine will be loooong gone. I will, of course, advise them to flee and seek shelter too, and if I am wrong they will think I am a nutcase (as if they don't already think the dude in the colonial outfits and the longrifle is a bit "odd"). Being thought of as "odd" has an advantage..., the knuckleheads that are some of my neighbors leave me alone.
I have some supplies set aside, for hurricanes. Sure, they don't often hit in Maryland, but I remember two in my lifetime, plus an ice storm, and regardless of the true cause of the global climate changes, (be they normal, solar, or man made) the storms are getting a bit worse in some areas.
IF you are prepared for a hurricane, and to not have to go to the store for 30 days, IMHO you are also prepared for anything man made as well, no? Terrorist, pollution, or Mother Nature, the end situation is about the same. (WE CAN learn from earlier times, and set aside some basic foods, seeds, and firstade supplies folks!!)
I remember hurricane Andrew God-smacked Florida something fierce in '92..., I also remember one photo of a neighborhood flattened by the storm, and among the rubble stood a full sized lodge and a cookset on fire irons over a fire! The only person comfortable among several hundred homes was the Black Powder dude and his family! I also saw a photo with a sign that read "Looters Will Be Shot and another read " U loot U-Die. New Orleans has restrictive gun laws; FL has the opposite, not much looting in FL (but that's getting waaay off topic)
LD
Post by: jbullard1 on May 04, 2009, 11:22:00 AM
Quote from: "Loyalist Dave"
........I will, of course, advise them to flee and seek shelter too, and if I am wrong they will think I am a nutcase (as if they don't already think the dude in the colonial outfits and the longrifle is a bit "odd"). Being thought of as "odd" has an advantage..., the knuckleheads that are some of my neighbors leave me alone. Smile ...........
I resemble that remark
Post by: deadfallpaul on May 04, 2009, 02:41:00 PM
Quote from: "Loyalist Dave"
QuoteQuoteThis being by stealing, robbing.buying or whatever means they can. Take for example NEW Orleans. The looting and stealing that occurred.
"Ah but remember too that the fools didn't loot food, water, ammo, medicine, candles..., they waded through waist high water to steal TV sets for a city that was without power!
They were not successful when they ran into armed resistance."
Trouble was the firearms were confiscated, if you remember correctly.
Isn't going to happen in my case.
Also, they had no water or food and there were a lot of private home break ins.
I agree about "us" being able to survive better then most.
Heck I mostly live that way now and my neighbors aren't very close.
Still I am ready to "take to the hills" if worse comes to worse.[/b]
Post by: northwoodsdave on May 06, 2009, 12:09:36 PM
How the early frontiersmen not only survived, but often thrived is fascinating. Jedediah Smith essentially walked from one end of the country to the other, and then back again. And this was back when Ohio was still considered a part of the frontier!
To say a modern person could not survive is not accurate, I think. But the learning curve would be REALLY steep. I tend to equate it to becoming very lost or marooned. Many simply die. Others can manage to survive and a few end up doing darned well at it!
NorthwoodsDave
Post by: oomcurt on May 17, 2009, 03:26:01 PM
Now for skills and coping with the ultimate reality...called nature. Well, IF one had the time to learn what they did then and HOW they did it...and even more important, WHY they did it a certain way... Yeah, no reason why it couldn't be done. "Time" is the operative word here.
So much of our "knowledge" today comes from books. Kinda odd...I know people today who graduated from highschool...are in their 40's...and cannot add! There are "professionals" that while quite good in their field, outside of that are dumber than a box of rocks. Sad.
Bottom line..IF one were to be transported to a age long gone....the majority if not given a long time period would not make it, imho.
Finally, re today's world and dealing with a calamity of Katrina's kind or worse...one that would take years to get over with... This would not be a pleasant place to live...at all. IF, that were to happen, IMO..you better be ready to kill or you will be killed..no if's and's or but's about it. Your neighbor could well be your worst enemy.