Post by: Trois Castors on February 24, 2011, 03:43:49 PM
The men of The Canadian Corps of Voyageurs refused to wear the red coat of the British.Because of their work they wore a capot,red toque,loose-fitting leggings and moccasins.
It is written that their standard equipment included a rifle,small axe and a knife.Also issued to each of them by the Crown was a sword,pike and a pistol! :?
Post by: mario on February 24, 2011, 11:29:14 PM
Cox, Vol 2, 238, 240, as found in Gale, The Great Northwest Fur Trade, pages 145-146
If they had bayonets, they likely had muskets, not rifles. Not to mention rifles were quite uncommon in the area yet.
These guys were mostly to be used as laborers, not soldiers. My guess is they were allowed to wear their normal dress.
Might try contacting Fort William Historical Park in Canada for leads on written sources.
Also, good articles in general:
http://www.northwestjournal.ca/ (http://www.northwestjournal.ca/)
bon chasse,
Mario
Post by: Puffer on February 25, 2011, 02:09:35 PM
But if supplied by the "crown: a little easier.
1. long arm _ a Bess ( not a rifle ) ( example D. Thompson served as an officer in a NWC uniit & although he carried a rifle in the PNW, He carried a "Bess" at this time.
2. Pistol = most likely an issue ( perhaps a Queen Ann)
3. Sword - perhaps same as above (except "officers" ( a brit saber)
4. Axe - see above
Jack
Post by: Trois Castors on February 25, 2011, 03:35:24 PM
http://www.pinecone.on.ca/MAGAZINE/stor ... geurs.html (http://www.pinecone.on.ca/MAGAZINE/stories/CanadianCorpsVoyageurs.html)
The word "rifle" in the article didn't sound right to me either.
I have a trade gun and a sea-service pistol
Would these do or would the musket(which pattern then)and different pistol be in order?
Post by: Puffer on February 25, 2011, 05:09:06 PM
Quote from: "Trois Castors"
Thanks Mario and Jack, What I wrote was gleaned from this:
http://www.pinecone.on.ca/MAGAZINE/stor ... geurs.html (http://www.pinecone.on.ca/MAGAZINE/stories/CanadianCorpsVoyageurs.html)
The word "rifle" in the article didn't sound right to me either.
I have a trade gun and a sea-service pistol :lol:
BTW, it is interesting that the mil. was equipping them with pistols.
Jack
Post by: Kermit on February 25, 2011, 05:32:03 PM
Post by: Puffer on February 25, 2011, 08:20:21 PM
Quote from: "Kermit"
Puffer--is that "spittoons" or "spontoons." I can't see a spitoon as a defensive weapon. :oops: :oops: :oops: :lol:
Puffer
Post by: Puffer on February 25, 2011, 09:06:05 PM
2 Myths =
1. All looked like "pirate swords = WRONG
They were basically a short bladed "hanger" ( both straight & curved)
The "hilts/guards differed drastically, from the "saber style, Basket style, to the "pirate style"
2. They were only "naval weapons" = WRONG
In fact very often carried/preferred by those in the brush incl. NWC/HBC ( most often "genre" mentioned ) & the Military
Why ?? Because they "carried well" ( better than long blades ) They were VERY effective weapons ++ they were GREAT Tools ( think machete + great for dispatching game & dismemberment of same etc) )
IMO, our NWC bros carried what Worked, both as a weapon & tool.
Here is one I like ( good hand protection,sturdy/practical blade, Plain/simple ( something the NWC employee could afford )
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/ACCESORY/Untitled-1.jpg)
Puffer
Post by: Puffer on February 25, 2011, 09:26:37 PM
Quote from: "Puffer"
A Side note on "CUTLASS'
2 Myths =
1. All looked like "pirate swords = WRONG
They were basically a short bladed "hanger" ( both straight & curved)
The "hilts/guards differed drastically, from the "saber style, Basket style, to the "pirate style"
2. They were only "naval weapons" = WRONG
In fact very often carried/preferred by those in the brush incl. NWC/HBC ( most often "genre" mentioned ) & the Military
Why ?? Because they "carried well" ( better than long blades ) They were VERY effective weapons ++ they were GREAT Tools ( think machete + great for dispatching game & dismemberment of same etc) )
IMO, our NWC bros carried what Worked, both as a weapon & tool.
Here is one I like ( good hand protection,sturdy/practical blade, Plain/simple ( something the "common NWC employee could afford )
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/ACCESORY/Untitled-1.jpg)
Puffer
Post by: Trois Castors on February 26, 2011, 02:50:18 PM
Quote from: "Puffer"
A Side note on "CUTLASS'Thanks Jack, I think you may have already answered my next question.Which was does this "thing" here look anything like the swords on the trade lists?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/ACCESORY/Untitled-1.jpg)
Puffer
[albumimg:3gdwu93s]5252[/albumimg:3gdwu93s][albumimg:3gdwu93s]5251[/albumimg:3gdwu93s][albumimg:3gdwu93s]5250[/albumimg:3gdwu93s]
I'm assuming not, but it came in some plunder,sooo.........
Post by: Puffer on February 26, 2011, 03:24:33 PM
To me it would "work" as a Great "Hunter"
No matter, YOU are a "lucky Dude" getting this "blade", IMHO.
Puffer
Post by: mario on February 26, 2011, 05:07:45 PM
Quote from: "Trois Castors"
Thanks Jack, I think you may have already answered my next question.Which was does this "thing" here look anything like the swords on the trade lists?
[albumimg:3iehioi2]5252[/albumimg:3iehioi2][albumimg:3iehioi2]5251[/albumimg:3iehioi2][albumimg:3iehioi2]5250[/albumimg:3iehioi2]
I'm assuming not, but it came in some plunder,sooo.........
The blade, sure. But I'd switch out the handle and get a shell guard for it. It'd be a nice hunting sword.
Honestly (and just my personal opinion), I don't see these guys getting swords. They going to repel boarders on a canoe or York boat/batteau?
There are pics of some nice swords carried by HBC/NWC officers in Gale's book, but the avg guy?
Mario
Post by: Puffer on February 26, 2011, 09:39:03 PM
Quote from: "mario"
Honestly (and just my personal opinion), I don't see these guys getting swords. They going to repel boarders on a canoe or York boat/batteau?
There are pics of some nice swords carried by HBC/NWC officers in Gale's book, but the avg guy?
Mario
Some thoughts -
1. The NWC had a vital "interest" in keeping their "water ways" open ( free of the Yanks ) & the Brits made use of this.
2. The NWC had some of their supply Schooners armed ( such as the Nancy)
3. They also armed many of their "york boats & a few of the "big canoes". ( mainly swivels )
Why, the "yanks" went after them.
Were they manned by Voyageurs = YEP.
Were they manned by The Canadian Corps of Voyageurs = the ones assigned to them for their raids & supply.
4. The Canadian Corps of Voyageurs was formed to conduct "irregular" warfare" ( against the Yanks.( basically on land ) & supply of isolated posts. In spite of their "oddities" they were effective, but in 1813, they were disbanded & the Brits formed them into a more "formal unit" = the Provincial Commissariat Voyageurs
5. Now why swords ?? = I can not say, but they were required/issued. did they keep or use ???
Puffer
Post by: Puffer on February 26, 2011, 10:08:48 PM
There are pics of some nice swords carried by HBC/NWC officers in Gale's book, but the avg guy?
Mario[/quote]
Mario, What do mean by "officers"?????
If by NWC/HBC "def." then UPPER level ( usually a "winteringpartner" (NWC )) or a Sr. clerk , factor or above ( HBC)
Also, what do you mean by "average guy"????
If the lowest level "clerk ( often a young teenager) = Then YES ( required "load out" )
If gen. employee Emigre etc = not required, they carried & used. ( both NWC & HBC. Did they own. = some apparently did. but most drew from the post armory.
BTW, the naive Amer.s also carried as well as the Yank fr traders.
puffer
Post by: Puffer on February 26, 2011, 10:10:05 PM
Quote from: "Puffer"
[quote="mario
There are pics of some nice swords carried by HBC/NWC officers in Gale's book, but the avg guy?
Mario
Mario, What do mean by "officers"?????
If by NWC/HBC "def." then UPPER level ( usually a "wintering partner" (NWC )) or a Sr. clerk , factor or above ( HBC)
Also, what do you mean by "average guy"????
If the lowest level "clerk ( often a young teenager) = Then YES ( required "load out" ) Also include t "bad as*s. ( not "offically" NWC/HBC )
If gen. employee Emigre etc = not required, they carried & used. ( both NWC & HBC. Did they own. = some apparently did. but most drew from the post armory.
BTW, the naive Amer.s also carried as well as the Yank fr traders.
puffer[/quote]
Post by: mario on February 26, 2011, 10:26:42 PM
Quote from: "Puffer"
4. The Canadian Corps of Voyageurs was formed to conduct "irregular" warfare" ( against the Yanks.( basically on land ) & supply of isolated posts. In spite of their "oddities" they were effective, but in 1813, they were disbanded & the Brits formed them into a more "formal unit" = the Provincial Commissariat Voyageurs
All the online sources I found had them as waterborne teamsters rather than raiding parties.
Quote from: "Puffer"
5. Now why swords ?? = I can not say, but they were required/issued. did they keep or use ???
The online sources I found were all modern writings, with no primary documentation. Is there primary documentation as to what they were issued? I haven't gone this far in history, so I don't really know.
Quote from: "Puffer"
Mario, What do mean by "officers"?????
If by NWC/HBC "def." then UPPER level ( usually a "wintering partner" (NWC )) or a Sr. clerk , factor or above ( HBC)
Bingo. The guys that weren't paddling, portaging and doing the grunt work.
Quote from: "Puffer"
Also, what do you mean by "average guy"????
If the lowest level "clerk ( often a young teenager) = Then YES ( required "load out" ) Also include t "bad as*s. ( not "offically" NWC/HBC )
Yup. The laborers/voyageurs/Home Guard Indians/ low end clerks.
Quote from: "Puffer"
If gen. employee Emigre etc = not required, they carried & used. ( both NWC & HBC. Did they own. = some apparently did. but most drew from the post armory.
Gale has quotes showing the officers kept arms and brought some with them.
Mario
Post by: Puffer on February 26, 2011, 10:28:47 PM
Quote from: "Puffer"
[/quote]Quote from: "Puffer"[quote="mario
There are pics of some nice swords carried by HBC/NWC officers in Gale's book, but the avg guy?
Mario
Mario, What do mean by "officers"?????
If by NWC/HBC "def." then UPPER level ( usually a "wintering partner" (NWC )) or a Sr. clerk , factor or above ( HBC)
Also, what do you mean by "average guy"????
If the lowest level "clerk ( often a young teenager) = Then YES ( required "load out" ) Also include t "bad as*s. ( not "offically" NWC/HBC )
If gen. employee Emigre etc = not required, they carried & used. ( both NWC & HBC. Did they own. = some apparently did. but most drew from the post armory. Were they used in the "field" ? = yes often.
BTW, the naive Amer.s also carried as well as the Yank fur traders.
Also note, the HBC had heavy armed ships here in the PNW (& else where) Many of the "crew"were South Sea Islanders.)
puffer
Post by: Puffer on February 27, 2011, 12:42:54 AM
I will try to address in order But NOTE- I "specialize"in NWC/HBC history from the 1800s to the 1850s in the PNW. My "knowledge of the 1812 era comes from from those that steady this era.
1. What sources are you viewing ??
The common Voyageurs were, but these guys were NOT.
2. weapons - only what you posted
3. Ok, but see below
4. Ok, But Home Guard Indians did not exist. & even the Lowend clerks ( most often young teenagers) swords were a part of req'd loadout.
5. Gale is iffy here. Many NWC/HBC accounts vary.
With respect, Puffer
Post by: Trois Castors on February 27, 2011, 02:25:58 PM
Quote from: "mario"
Most of my books are gone now,so this kit list came from 5 different internet sites(modern writings).I thought it funny all the stuff they were issued......however the general consensus of these sites was that the Voyageurs traded,sold or through overboard most of this kit so they didn't have to schlep the extra weight.
Honestly (and just my personal opinion), I don't see these guys getting swords. They going to repel boarders on a canoe or York boat/batteau?
Quote from: "mario"
The blade, sure. But I'd switch out the handle and get a shell guard for it. It'd be a nice hunting sword.
I think I will change out the handle,thanks for the idea.(It's really no good to me the way it is)
Post by: Puffer on March 02, 2011, 11:35:40 AM
Quote from: "Puffer"
Quote from: "Kermit"Puffer--is that "spittoons" or "spontoons." I can't see a spitoon as a defensive weapon. :oops: :oops: :oops: :lol:
Puffer
Well, here is what I meant to Type - SPADROON
Here is a pic of a Brit. 1786 Officer's.
Note these "tech" had the longer blade, but some did nt.
[albumimg:37pb9i1m]5266[/albumimg:37pb9i1m] [albumimg:37pb9i1m]5267[/albumimg:37pb9i1m]
Puffer