Post by: Ppanepinto on March 16, 2012, 03:37:56 PM
Post by: Riley/MN on March 16, 2012, 04:02:15 PM
Can't help with the question as how it fits in your neck of the woods, but welcome to the TMA!
Post by: Ppanepinto on March 16, 2012, 04:45:23 PM
Post by: mario on March 16, 2012, 11:24:53 PM
Quote from: "Ppanepinto"
I am working on a kit that dates between 1750 to 1770.
Simply put, there isn't one. Clothing styles change pretty drastically between those years.
Quote from: "Ppanepinto"
I'm thinking of a wide ranging individual from the New Orleans area.
French or Spanish? Outside of a trader, explorer or a military man, folks didn't generally range "wide". New Orleans saw an influx of Acadians in the 1740s and 1750. Spanish later on, back to French. Not an American city in the years you describe.
Quote from: "Ppanepinto"
I was thinking about making a pair of leather leggings to help protect my legs when walking through brush. Would this be PC/HC? I know wool was use more often, but where I hunt I would like the better protection.
Wool does fine with the burdocks and thorns in my neck of the woods. Leather leggings were fast disappearing once wool came onto the scene. If nothing else, wool dries faster. The leather legging thing is played up by folks who think it looks more "rustic" or "frontiersy" and by folks who thing wool doesn't work in brush for some reason.
Mario
Post by: Adam Wetherington on March 17, 2012, 07:18:20 AM
Post by: trg on March 17, 2012, 10:52:01 AM
Post by: sse on March 17, 2012, 11:40:14 AM
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I will be filling out the membership form tonight.Fantastic...! Welcome...
Post by: greyhunter on March 17, 2012, 06:45:21 PM
Post by: Ironhand on March 17, 2012, 09:35:02 PM
Just thinking
Post by: mario on March 18, 2012, 01:30:46 AM
Quote from: "Ironhand"
Not that I know a great deal about this but an idea occurred to me. If cloth was used more than leather, what about sail cloth? It would be tough, cooler than wool and would have been readily available in your area. Basicly you would have a pair of Carhart leggings. :P
Just thinking
Looking at the actual historical record, nope.
And linen/hemp was used on occasion, but not they way you may think.
This blog has a good post about it.
http://buffalotrace1765.blogspot.com/20 ... gings.html (http://buffalotrace1765.blogspot.com/2010/08/yes-virginia-they-wore-linen-leggings.html)
Wool leggings are not as hot as you may think. Wool breathes, allowing your body to cool itself.
Mario
Post by: mario on March 18, 2012, 01:43:19 AM
"On their legs they have Indian boots, or leggings, made of coarse woolen cloth, that either are wrapped around loosely and tied with garters, or are laced upon the outside, and always come better than half way up the thigh: these are a great defence and preservative, not only against the bite of serpents and poisonous insects, but likewise against the scratches of thorns, briars, scrubby bushes and underwood, with which this whole country is infested and overspread."
J.F.D. Smyth, Tour In The United States of America, 1784.
"Above the moccasin all the Indians wear what are called leggings, which reach from the instep to the middle of the thigh. They are commonly made of blue or scarlet cloth..." [in the 18th century, "cloth" meant wool 99% of the time]
Isaac Weld, Travels Through the States Of North America, 1799.
"Leggers, leggins, or Indian spatterdashes, are usually made of frieze or other coarse woolen cloth;"
Captain John Knox, Historical Journal, 1757.
"The Indians, who have any dealings with the English or American traders, and all of them have that live in the neighborhood, and to the east of the Mississippi, and in the neighborhood of the great lakes to the north-west, have now totally laid aside the use of furs and skins in their dress, except for their shoes or moccasins, and sometimes for their legging, as they find they can exchange them to advantage for blankets and woolen cloths, &C. which they consider likewise as much more agreeable-and commodious materials for wearing apparel."
Isaac Weld, Travels Through the States of North America, 1799.
"People that travel much in the Woods wear leggins of coarse wollen cloth..."
Nicholas Cresswell, June 1776
Although memories written down decades after the fact are suspect, here's one for leather leggings:
"Declarant states that he was then stationed at Fort Pitt, the place aforesaid. Declarant states that in obedience to the order of his said Captain Brady, he proceeded to tan his thighs and legs with wild cherry and white oak bark and to equip himself after the following manner, to Wit, a breechcloth, leather legging, moccasins and a cap made out of a racoon skin, with the feathers of a hawk, painted after the manner of an Indian warrior. His face was painted red, with three black stripes across his cheeks, which was a signification of war. Declarant states that Captain Brady's company was about sixty-four in number, all painted after the manner aforesaid."
George Roush, 19th Century Pension Papers. Describing His Clothing In 1777.
Mario
Post by: Roaddog on March 18, 2012, 08:55:37 AM
Post by: Ironhand on March 18, 2012, 09:02:10 AM
Quote from: "mario"
Looking at the actual historical record, nope.
Mario
Mario,
Clearly, based on your research in the surviving documentation such and option appears to be unlikely or unusual. I can accept that premise. As stated this is not really my area of study.
What I find troublesome is this absolute dismissal. Given the dispersed population and limited literacy rate of this era the surviving historical record can rarely be considered complete. A survey of the extant literature by any one individual, no mater how extensive, can not be taken as grounds for a statement of absolutes.
Post by: Capt. Jas. on March 18, 2012, 09:55:03 AM
Quote from: "Ironhand"
Quote from: "mario"Looking at the actual historical record, nope.
Mario
Mario,
Clearly, based on your research in the surviving documentation such and option appears to be unlikely or unusual. I can accept that premise. As stated this is not really my area of study.
What I find troublesome is this absolute dismissal. Given the dispersed population and limited literacy rate of this era the surviving historical record can rarely be considered complete. A survey of the extant literature by any one individual, no mater how extensive, can not be taken as grounds for a statement of absolutes.
While it is true that we are only able to look thru a very dirty and foggy window into the past, it is best not to hinder our views of that which WAS with supposition and what only MAY have been.
The goal is to look at all areas of information whether it be written, surviving with provenence, dug, painted, etc. in light of when, where and who.
Post by: Adam Wetherington on March 18, 2012, 10:09:15 AM
You asked a question and got an answer with a bunch of documentation to boot.
If it makes you feel better I say go ahead and wear leather or wool or sailcloth or whatever you fancy, as long as you are out having fun and you are content then so be it. Just don't go telling folks that your kit is the way it would have been back then with any degree of certainty......
Post by: Ironhand on March 18, 2012, 01:38:17 PM
Post by: mario on March 18, 2012, 04:22:52 PM
Quote from: "Ironhand"
Quote from: "mario"Looking at the actual historical record, nope.
Mario
What I find troublesome is this absolute dismissal.
It's not a dismissal. It's an educated answer based on 100s of hours of researching period documents, images, and artifacts.
Quote from: "Ironhand"
I was simply attempting to point out that the incomplete nature of the available data set does not support stating the findings as an absolute.
My original statement was "Looking at the historical record..." Using the information available, it's as absolute as it can get. Until something else comes to light.
Think of it as a murder trial. The prosecution brings evidence in the form of affidavits, witnesses, pictures and a gun with fingerprints on it. The defense's position is there is probably evidence somewhere that his client is innocent and you can't make a judgment because we haven't found it yet.
Who would win?
If I used the "shoulda, coulda, woulda" method, I can say that Continental soldiers carried AK-47s. You offer proof other wise. I say, just because you haven't found a mention of it in the historical record, doesn't mean they didn't. They had steel and wood and gunpowder. They could have. You'd probably think I was an idiot.
Mario
PS- Seeing as how this was posted in the Longhunter section, Mark Baker has a huge number of ledger accounts detailing what longhunters working for BWM were drawing from the stores as far as clothing.
Post by: Ppanepinto on March 18, 2012, 04:55:49 PM
Post by: Ironhand on March 18, 2012, 09:10:46 PM
You simply phrased your response differently then I would have.
This thread has brought up what I think is an interesting question. Your research clearly indicates that wool was uniformly the preferred material over various regions. Why do you think this occurred?
I find this interesting as I would have expected regional differences based on material availability and local cultures. Do you find regional variations in design or is that fairly uniform as well.
I ask because I am interested in how such details of material culture spread between groups.
Post by: mario on March 18, 2012, 09:59:32 PM
Quote from: "Ironhand"
This thread has brought up what I think is an interesting question. Your research clearly indicates that wool was uniformly the preferred material over various regions. Why do you think this occurred?
It boils down to efficiency of labor as well as practical use.
Leather gets wet: it stretches, takes quite a bit of time to dry and when it does dry, can get a bit stiff (BT seems to have less of the last problem)
Wool gets wet: It doesn't stretch, dries quickly and when it dries, it's the same as before.
Labor involved in getting deerhides, scraping/tanning them and sewing leggings was more than it took to getting deerhides (in the South) or beaver hides (in the North), giving them a scrape and then trading them for cloth. Not to mention that cloth is MUCH easier to work than leather.
Leather has little insulation value in cooler weather. Wool has excellent insulation value, even when wet.
Using the standard of trade for Fort Stanwix, which is an hour away from my house, as an example:
1762
"One stroud of 2 yards long {cost} Two beaver or three dressed buckskins."
So for the amount of deer it took to make 1 1/2 pairs of leggings, you got enough wool to make at least 3 pairs.
Quote from: "Ironhand"
I find this interesting as I would have expected regional differences based on material availability and local cultures. Do you find regional variations in design or is that fairly uniform as well.
In my area of study (pre-1783 Great Lakes, Canada and the colonies), the descriptions are virtually identical. Flap about 4 fingers wide, seam along the outside of the leg, snug-fitting, ankle to a hand's width above the thigh.
NOTE: Later on in the South, you see a change in some places to a seam that runs along the front of the leg.
Mario
Post by: rickevans on March 19, 2012, 09:55:54 AM
Post by: sse on March 19, 2012, 10:01:55 AM
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I want everyone to know that you have been one of the most helpful group of people I have run in to and that is why I have thrown in the hat with ya'll. I hope to be here for a long time...Thanks for the comment, it is great to have you...
Post by: SAWMA on March 20, 2012, 09:43:00 AM
Leggings or Spatterdashes
Since a man's breeches of the 18th century came to just beneath the knee, a covering for the lower leg was useful for warmth and protection. Leggings fully covered the lower leg from a few inches above the knee extending to cover the top of the foot. Spatterdashes covered the leg from the mid-shin to the top of the foot. Made of stout woolen or linen cloth or of leather, leggings and spatterdashes were worn by the sporting gentleman, laboring man, and the military.
Post by: Ppanepinto on January 14, 2013, 12:18:42 AM
Post by: mario on January 15, 2013, 02:04:23 AM
Quote from: "Ppanepinto"
After a long while of being away (working on my Master’s Degree) I’ve come back to working on my kit. I was thinking about making a pair of the French Gaiters out of leather, or now waterproofed cotton in a brown color, much like the #6016 French and Indian War Gaiters from the C & D Jarnagin Company web site. Buttons would be ether antler or horn, just seeing if I am going in the right direction. Here is a link to the site: http://www.jarnaginco.com/FIcatframe.html (http://www.jarnaginco.com/FIcatframe.html)
First, antler buttons of the style most folks use (where the antler is just sliced into rounds and drilled for attachment) are not 18th century. Horn buttons were darn near everywhere.
Second, the full gaiters are a military item, going out of style by the end of the F&I War. Not likely worn by a civilian "out and about".
Third, I find full gaiters very uncomfortable to wear and put on/take off and a pain to make well. They must be fitted really well or they look like you're wearing half-deflated water wings on your legs.
Mario
Post by: Adam Wetherington on January 15, 2013, 06:29:39 AM
However, I do really like wearing mine. They are comfortable. Mine are from FLying Canoe I think. You'll need to reinforce the buttons as they come off easily. Especially when trying to button or unbutton them if you don't go give some attention to the threads holding each one in place.