Post by: Catchem on September 04, 2012, 08:37:23 AM
I'm talking about refreshing the edge of a flint that has been knapped so much in the jaws of the lock that it has now become a thick-edged rock?
I hate to throw them away, but really think that it's 'way past the state where I can put a leather pad on my knee and reshape it ala real flint 'knapping'.
Post by: pathfinder on September 04, 2012, 09:05:02 AM
At the price of flint's these day's,I may give this some thought!
Post by: Captchee on September 04, 2012, 09:30:30 AM
But you don’t even need that .
I would also point out that if your ending up with large gun flints with thick round ends , your not knapping your flints correctly .
What you should be achieving is a sharp edge all they way through the life of the flint . Well tell such time as the flint is to small to hold in the jaws
Quote
I hate to throw them away, but really think that it's 'way past the state where I can put a leather pad on my knee and reshape it ala real flint 'knapping'
You can simply bring back a edge by striking it , just as one would do producing an arrow head . I smaller pieces are held in the hand and struck . or what you can do is but some pine blocks in your vice and strike the edge at an angle
Post by: Catchem on September 05, 2012, 08:28:36 AM
Quote from: "Captchee"
all you need is a diamond plate or wheel . It will take the flint right down. But you don’t even need that . You can simply bring back a edge by striking it , just as one would do producing an arrow head . I smaller pieces are held in the hand and struck . or what you can do is but some pine blocks in your vice and strike the edge at an angle
Thanks. The vise may give me the control I need. Obviously I am not happy with my technique. I also have read that 'coarse diamond files' are readily available and easy to use and think I will give these a try. Another technique that I have tried, and failed with, is to use a partly opened frizzen to snap the flint against. I really hate hammering because I see all these 'big' (for a gunflint) chunks of flint going off when I hit the edge. Again, thanks.
Post by: Captchee on September 05, 2012, 08:45:16 AM
I would recommend getting you a small brass hammer OR making a Knapping tool “ IE rod “ so as to be able to knapp the edges of you flint better so you don’t end up with that thick round flint .
That rod will also allow you to place the flints you now have , in a vice and knock the edge back to sharp .
Myself I find the small knapping hammers that come with flintlock kits , to be to small . I use a small cheep hammer from the 1.00 store . Here are a couple photos of how I use the hammer as well as how to make a knapping rod
suport the flint with your finger
strike the edge of the flint at an angle . this will strike pieces of the flint off the bottom of the flint . leaving them on your finger
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/TMA/DSC01084.jpg)
simple knapping tool /rod
Post by: rickevans on September 05, 2012, 08:50:04 AM
Post by: Captchee on September 05, 2012, 08:58:48 AM
as allways , the angle you strike at is the key . to strait and it will just knock of chunks of flint .
just hold it an an angle and use light taps. it will knock the bottom righ off and bring the flint back to sharp . then all you have to do is even out the edge so that its square with the frizzen
Post by: Kermit on October 06, 2012, 02:03:57 PM
The advice to not wait too long to knap is good, but you don't need to go overboard either. Nobody's said this, I think, but when it's finally just a rock, it's just a rock. Start afresh. Also, you might do well to send your lock to someone who will tune it and get the frizzen the right hardness. Can't remember who, but someone advertises that service in Muzzleloader mag, IIRC. That will save you a bunch of trouble and extend the life of flints. I've known a couple of guys who can tune locks and knap flints and regularly get 100+ shots out of a black English flint.
I knew a fellow a lot of years back who used an antler tip to pressure flake a new edge on his flints. Worked for him.
BTW, I'd forget putting an edge on by grinding. Years ago I bought some "cut flints," thinking they were the cat's meow. Not. Couldn't give them away fast enough. I kind of think of them in the same category as plastic/stainless inliners. Almost.
Post by: Stormrider51 on October 10, 2012, 01:47:26 AM
I'm really very sorry but I think you will find that attempting to rework a flint beyond a certain point is impossible or at least not economically desirable. I believe I understand what you are wanting, a mechanical means to put an edge back on a flint without "knapping". Regrind it, in other words. It has already been pointed out that "cut flints" have been around since sometime in the 1970's and were a disappointment even back then. It appears that you are wanting to economize by getting every possible shot from a flint. That's fine because we all do but let me ask a question or two if you will. How many shots do you currently get from a flint before it reaches that "round edged" state? The flint in my smooth bore has ignited about 70 shots and is still looking good for more. It is at least 3/16" shorter than it was when originally installed. I paid $1.65 for that flint and if we assume that 70 shots is all it's good for then it has cost me 2 cents per shot. If you aren't getting a similar number of shots per flint, and some flints are just better quality than others, then there is something wrong with either your lock, the quality of the flint, or your flint maintenance skills. Again I'm sorry but flint maintenance means "knapping". You aren't going to remove the flint from the lock and regrind it on your diamond wheel or file every ten or fifteen shots are you? I run my thumb over the flint in my Siler lock before every loading. It's an educated thumb that knows how sharp is "sharp enough". If it's not sharp enough I take a few seconds to touch up the edge. A few seconds is all it takes and I'm removing really tiny flakes. A good flint should never reach a round-edged state. It will eventually become short enough to not be held in the jaws of the cock and still stick out far enough to scrape down the face of the frizzen. At that point it is done and it's time for another $1.65 flint. It's still a bargain. Percussion caps will cost you almost 9 cents a shot. The cost of modern ammo blows my mind.
Storm
Post by: Captchee on October 10, 2012, 07:00:07 AM
Cut gun flints go back a long ways . I seem to recall reading that they were very popular in Germany during the 18th century . I don’t remember right off hand if it was in Greener writings or maybe one of Skertchly ???
The life of a flint is dictated by a lot of different things .
Lock geometry is a big one . Minor angle distortions can most times be corrected to suitable outcomes by simply changing the angle of the flint in the jaws or flipping the flint over so that its bevel up vs. bevel down OR visa versa .
The other thing is learning to chose quality flints .
Myself , I simply hate ordering flints on line without having a quality reference from another shooter .
Back when I started shooting a lot of flintlocks , we earthier used /made gun spurs or we ordered English flints from Dixie .
The problem was that when you ordered , a lot of times a % of the flints were either un usable or very poor in quality . Today , you can ask and most folks can recommend a person to order from that has a reputation of providing on average a higher 5 of usable and quality flints .
Myself , years back when we heard rumors of Tom Fuller retiring, I jump on it a bought a large quality of his flints . So now about the only thing I buy is French ambers . Which a couple of my rifles prefer over English flints .
So my advice would be , if you have not as of yet don’t it , learn how to chose a quality flint .. Stay away from the cut German agates and two package flints sold at retailers .
Look for consistent color through out the flint . You want good angles and sharp edges . Depending on your lock , you might want a steep back “rib “ and a slopping front rib type flint . Or if you have deep jaws , you might like the double angle .
Myself I search out and chose flat back / toped flints . I have never been able to get an angled top of a common flint to hold correctly in the jaws of my rifles
Next is the placement of the flint to the jaws . A flint that is aloud to move , will not last as long as one that’s solidly mounted . . That means chosing the correct padding for your jaws of your lock .Some folks find lead to be the answer . Myself I use leather . I have tried heavier saddle type leathers . But always seem to come right back to a simple thick piece of chem or Brain tan leather .
Now you chose how to mount the flint . Should it be bevel up or bevel down .
What maters is how the lock sparks the best . The flint should not slam into the frizzen when the lock is fired . So look at how the flint contacts the frizzen .
At half cock “with a short throw lock “ the flint should be just a whisker off the face of the frizzen and pointing at around ¾ up the frizzen face . As you let the cock down , the flint should scrape down the frizzen and shower sparks , NOT try to force itself through the frizzen by slamming into it .
With long fall locks , this is even more important because their ½ and full cocks are so much farther back . There geometry must be true or they will eat flints like not tomorrow .
Once everything is working optimally. IE you have chosen quality flints , set them correctly ….
Now we can look at whats happening to your flints .
Do they wear back quickly .
If so , we then need to look at the edge of the flint . Because the case may be that your getting bounce back from the frizzen and that’s breaking the edge of the flint
But if the case is that the flint is just becoming rounded after repeated shooting then we can look just at the cause of that .
Myself I find that a lot of times this is caused by people who think they have to sharpen their flints all the time and are doing so an a bad angle . Thus resulting in a thick dull edged flint .
IMO if your lock is correct , you have chosen an set the flint correctly ,. Your not getting bounce back , then you should not have to sharpen you flint anymore then just a light clean up , every 7-10 shots .
The angle of that clean up is key . Once that correct angle is achieved , a simple repeated light clean up will slowly work the flint back to the point that one day all you go to move the flint forward and find that you have a small piece that will not hold to the jaws .
The only exception to this when you run into a nubb / hard area in the flint . Then you have to bring out a tool or use heavier more directed blows to get that point knocked off. But once you get the tip of that nubb snapped , then it will also once again go back to only needing light clean up ..
So with the thick flints you have collected .
Take those and set then to the jaws of a padded vice . Either nap the rib back to the flint or file it back using a diamond file. Once you have that angle , then you can go back to knapping the edge while its in the gun
Post by: Hanshi on October 10, 2012, 12:06:25 PM
Post by: Roaddog on October 11, 2012, 06:02:40 AM
Post by: badger8985 on January 22, 2013, 10:07:57 PM
Post by: shootrj2003 on January 22, 2013, 10:54:57 PM
They have been around a long time,I was surprised at this,almost as long as flint locks,I saw,Ithink it wasa list of some things unloaded from a ship in like the 1700 area and it included cut agate flints.
Post by: Captchee on January 23, 2013, 07:12:11 AM
At least the ones I have seen were .
Every now and then Dixie will offer up flints and agates from their store houses of reclaimed parts and pieces from ship wrecks . These often are offered with certificates of authenticity , listing the ship, the date of the wreck and a copy of the manifesto showing the flints or agates .
In the past when they have made such offers , the cost has not been to offal bad. Around 5-10.00 for a couple flints or agates .
IMO these are great to buy at least once .
Not because these are great items and work better . But because it’s a chance to see and compare with what we have today .
I have purchased both agates and English gun flints .
I found the gun flints to work no better then todays gun flints . This also proved to me. At least in my view that storing flints in water doesn’t change anything LOL .
The agates . Well those were alittle different then those offered today .
The 2 packs I received were a milky brown .and very different in hardness . More along the lines of being alittle harder then an French amber . But no where near as hard as the Cut Agates seen today .
This I discerned by the damage done to the frizzen . Which IMO on today better quality locks, is near instantaneous if one attempts using an agate
As such I recommend that if one chooses to use cut agates , at least watch the frizzen . If your seeing wear in a short time , then you might find it best to get actual flints . Same goes for ambers . Some times they are just to hard for a given lock .
Post by: Bigsmoke on January 23, 2013, 11:23:47 AM
The flint should have a little bit of clearance between it and the frizzen when the lock is in half cock position. The rock should be approximately the same width as the face of the frizzen. A little less is OK, but certainly no more.
I have always liked the L & R locks and received good service from them. Other peoples mileage may have varied. I think there is new ownership of the company since I was buying locks, so I really cannot saw how it is now. But for the time when your rifles was made, I think Bill Cox was the owner and he always did a good job, IMHO.
Captchee mentioned that he prefers to inspect the flints prior to buying them. I agree with that. And like him, I also prefer the flat top flints as opposed to the hump back ones. They just hold better to me. Call around to the different businesses that sell flint and see if they will sort out half a dozen flints for you.
I am not much of a fan of flint locks, and do not shoot them much at all. I don't think I ever tried a French amber, so I cannot address that. The McCoy rifle is a good gun, you should enjoy it a lot.
John
Post by: droptine on February 01, 2013, 05:37:35 PM
Post by: Uncle Russ on February 01, 2013, 09:55:18 PM
Quote from: "droptine"
you might try mizzy wheels in your dremel. they work great
I have been trying for weeks now to think of that name!Yes! A mizzy wheel will sharpen a flint WITHOUT it cracking, or splintering, as long as you keep the speed up.
I use one to flatten the tops typically, but I have used them to make an entire flint look it was factory made, or just came out of a mold.
This was mention here on the forum years ago, so I ordered a dozen...enough to last three people their entire lifetime, because it seems they don't wear, and they are cheap.
http://www.armstrongtoolsupply.com/abra ... heels.html (http://www.armstrongtoolsupply.com/abrasives/mizzy-wheels.html)
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Woodrock on May 17, 2013, 02:22:32 AM
Woody
Post by: Captchee on May 17, 2013, 07:26:24 AM
In so many words , first a long shard is struck from the flint stone ,using a specific type and weight of hammer. This produces a flake that’s much like what one would want when making an arrow head or knife blade from obsidian ..
That first flake , from what I have read , is then knocked off at even spacing’s that’s dictated by how long the finished flint should be .
Then they come back with a different hammer and strike between the first strikes . This produces a flake that’s beveled on both edges and flat on the bottom . IE you get a double edged shard that will make a double edged flint or one with a steep back , depending on the angle of the 2nd striking
then it gets to a block and snapped to width . If need be the sides ate Knapped alittle . But not the striking edge .
Now that’s in so many words making an actual gun flint like an English gun flint as described by Sydney B. J Skertchly ;The Manufacture of Gunflints
Here is the online read of that book
http://archive.org/stream/onmanufactureofg00skerrich#page/n5/mode/2up
The other way is to make a nodule type of flint , which is struck directly from the core like we would do to make a arrow head .
Now when we put it in our locks and that striking edge gets worn , that’s where the Knapping comes in so as to work the edge to keep it sharp .
There are probably other ways that are done today . But speaking for myself , I find that a properly made flint . that’s of good grade and thickness , will not only out last as cut flint , but they are also fare easier to maintain
Post by: Mad Irish Jack on January 18, 2014, 01:50:16 PM
years back I'd seen them at Rondy and started to make and vary size and shapes. I'd made strike tools like that from 3/8"brass rod and sold them for a buck or two at Rondy back in the 90's. They work great. I also made the strike tool with that filed out lip, from flat brass 2" long and 1/4" thick by 3/8" to 1 1/4" wide (for different widths of flints). With a good solid quick strike you can do a flint in 1 hit. I also made a flaker from a 2" piece of copper tubing, about 1" or more, is mounted into an antler tine. The other end is flattened and then folded ove in half one time. I use it to flake off edges that stick out making the flint edge uneven. Where the fold is makes achannel that you place the flint edge into and the quickly turn or twitch the tool to flake of the burr. You can also quickly flake off from the inner edge to the out. but doing this also wears the flint out quicker. But if hunting and you can't spark, its a quick fix. These are just things I've done and made over the yearsI,ve
Post by: Roaddog on January 19, 2014, 06:35:52 AM
Post by: Captchee on January 19, 2014, 08:03:27 AM
Post by: Mad Irish Jack on January 20, 2014, 11:49:57 AM
Quote from: "Roaddog"
Jack do you still make those tools? I would like to buy them if ya do.
I've recently moved; but due to several surgeries (Open heart quad bipass, rotator cuff and a total right knee replacement) I haven't had a chance to get in the basement to unload my boxes of shooting, hunting, fishing, tools etc. stuff. So I'm not sure what I have and where it is. They are easy to make and lots of guys just look them over to remember them so they could make their own. So, I stopped making them as I had a good supply in my rondy trade blanket supplies. I also had made touch hole picks. They were made of turkey and pheasant feet & shaped to the ultimate universal answer (Middle finger up). I have made items for myself that I've posted about and guys want photos. I haven't gotten to the STUFF yet so I can't accomidate them. I do hope to get at that stuff soon. Here's a picture of three I have in my pouch. I store a vent pic in the copper one. The flat one is 1" wide. I use a 1.25" for smoothy. The brass I was lucky enough to get years ago at my plant from the discard bin by asking for it. The black areas are the profile of the strike edge formed by filing.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/Mad_Jack/89773675-cab4-4ac7-a0de-a16596513baa_zps14e76916.jpg) (http://http)
Post by: Auldgoat on May 14, 2014, 11:51:53 PM
Post by: Ron T. on May 15, 2014, 10:29:22 AM
Strength & Honor...
Ron T.
Post by: Stormrider51 on May 15, 2014, 12:16:23 PM
Quote from: "Ron T."
:bl th up I've found it is quite easy and very effective to simply use a smallish, diamond-impregnated hand-file to sharpen the leading edge of my flints while they are held securely in the cock's jaws.
A few strokes with the file and the job is done.
You can get a set of 8 or 10 such smallish files at Harbor Freight for less than $10... and you've probably got a life-time supply of the files.
Strength & Honor...
Ron T.
I'm going to have to give that a try!
Storm
Post by: twisted_1in66 on August 11, 2014, 10:10:50 AM
One thing I might mention about dressing flints is that I don't do that anymore because I don't find it necessary. Any easy way to knap your flint that I learned years ago from Paul V (please don't ask me to spell his last name) on the other forum was called "hammering" the flint. You do that easing the frizzen up and lowering the cock until your flint just hits the bottom edge of the frizzen. Not above the bottom but right at it. Then, holding your frizzen in place with your thumb, cock and fire the lock. The flint hits the bottom edge of the frizzen and your flint is knapped evenly all the way across.
Another thing you can do to avoid the need of knapping the flint is adjust the angle that the flint initially strikes the frizzen to make sure it hits at a 55° to 60° angle. At that angle the flint will make a slicing motion against the frizzen. Flip bevel up or bevel down, move the flint forward or back as needed until you get that angle and you will rarely need to hammer the flint. If your flint strikes the frizzen at too abrupt an angle (~45° or less) it crushes the edge of the flint into the frizzen instead of slicing, doesn't spark well, and results in round flints, which I believe was the reason for this thread on renewing flints. Conversely, if you make the angle too steep on the flint it will hit the top of the flint instead of the edge and will break off huge chunks of flint. But get that 55° to 60° angle and the only thing you'll need to worry about with your flints is wiping the fouling off of the underside of the flint from time to time.
I also learned that from Paul and it made a huge difference in the reliability and performance of my flintlock. I really do not spend any time dressing my flints anymore.
Hope that helps,
Twisted_1in66
Post by: Ron T. on August 11, 2014, 02:34:52 PM
I "just missed" an opportunity to see Paul in person and talk to him at length at the early summer fest at Friendship in June of 2010. We had made the meeting arrangements, but at the last minute, Paul sent me an email saying that he didn't think he could "get away", but would try. I went down to Friendship as usual and was at our appointed meeting place (in front of the repair building at 1:00 PM), but alas, Paul didn't make it that year.
Sadly, Paul suddenly passed away on Sunday, September 30, 2012. Such a SHAME to lose such a fine gentleman so young (age 65). May he rest-in-peace...
Here is a net site on Google. Click on it (the blue "Google" at the end of this sentence) to learn more about Paul Vallandigham and his contributions to our knowledge of black powder shooting: Google (https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=paul+vallandigham)
Strength & Honor...
Ron T.