Post by: david32cal on October 29, 2012, 12:44:27 PM
Post by: Riley/MN on October 29, 2012, 12:55:31 PM
Post by: greyhunter on October 29, 2012, 08:19:24 PM
Quote from: "Riley/MN"
Yeah, I've been known to choke a jug or two... no, wait - what are you talkin about?:rotf :rotf Sorry David, no help from me.
Post by: wattlebuster on December 31, 2012, 01:32:30 PM
Post by: sse on January 09, 2013, 04:47:50 PM
Post by: shootrj2003 on January 12, 2013, 12:46:47 PM
Post by: Riley/MN on January 12, 2013, 09:24:56 PM
Post by: Riley/MN on February 27, 2013, 02:23:52 PM
Lowell Tennyson
209 E Lotte St.
Blue Grass IA. 52726
563-381-3711
Post by: david32cal on February 27, 2013, 10:19:02 PM
Post by: pathfinder on February 28, 2013, 09:45:00 AM
Post by: Riley/MN on February 28, 2013, 11:50:59 AM
Post by: sse on February 28, 2013, 01:04:07 PM
Quote
How do it affect the shootin a roundball outta that barrel?Ruins it...
Post by: Eric Krewson on March 02, 2013, 11:04:09 PM
I will know in a few more weeks as my English Fowler is almost done.
Post by: sse on March 03, 2013, 01:33:11 PM
Post by: ridjrunr on March 03, 2013, 03:00:54 PM
Post by: lonehunter on March 03, 2013, 07:10:43 PM
I fired shot through it for the first time this morning, Quite impressive patterns at 25 yrds.
Post by: Riley/MN on March 03, 2013, 08:16:04 PM
Post by: lonehunter on March 03, 2013, 08:36:07 PM
Quote from: "Riley/MN"
How'd you load 'er?70gr 3F
overpowder wad
ox-yoke wonder wad
#6 shot, measured with a 20ga shot cup from a modern shell
overshot card
I would put it up against my Mossberg turkey gun at 25 yrds, Thinking about taking it to the next local turkey shoot, That should turn some heads.
Post by: pathfinder on March 03, 2013, 09:56:34 PM
To my way of thinking,I would think it would have very little if any effect on where the ball end's up on the target. As long as you didn't loose the patch in the jug part of the choke. But it's moving so fast,i doubt if you would. Musing's of a tired Polish fella.
Post by: Captchee on March 04, 2013, 05:07:29 AM
Would it really mater considering where the jug choke is , I cant say . Did they still shoot RB fine , ya they did . Was it worse then a barrel that wasn’t jugged , no IMO not .
I think all to often we strive to get the best of two worlds while living in one .
i would also point out that having a choked bore , does not mean you will suddenly achive better results then a cylinder bore . its more complicated then that.
now the rest of this post is probably more then what the auther of this thread wants or exspected . however here it is anyway for those who maybe interested .
Myself I have never been big on chokes for smooth bores . I just don’t see the need . Especially on a gun that’s intended to be duel purpose . But in which case if a person wanted a choke on a smooth bore and wanted to shoot RB from the same bore , IMO jug choking would be the way to go .
As far as a choke goes though . I don’t believe that jug choking compares anywhere near restrictive choking . Does it work , yes it does .
However if we look at the public “FIELD “ events of the 1840’s - 1890’s prior to early smokeless breechloaders entering the events , we don’t see any jug choked bores listed they are all restrictive bores . At least not that I have read . In fact even the restrictive choking doesn’t really show up untell rather late when greener entered the events with his treble-wedge -fast breeched design, which was a combination of restrictive choke and breechloading design .
Prior to that though , the scores show that muzzleloaders with cylinder bores ,were still beating the pants off of breech loaders in both pattern and penetration well into the 1870 events . It wasn’t tell the 1874 event where Greener entered with his triple wedge breechloaders that things began to even out . later when that design was combined with Schultz wood powder , thats when things really changed , leaving the cylinder bore in the dust .
I would also point out that the ranges for those events for both pattern and penetration were listed as 40, 50 and 60 yards .
So where does Jug choking fit into all this ???? Good question , that’s something I don’t know . But it would appear that either it was so common on fowling piece , that it wasn’t mentioned , it simple wasn’t used or it was used and writen down simply as choked . in which case it still was found lacking in the trials .
but then i could have missed its mention in my reading. which could be a big possability as surly it could have been mentioned somewhere . but i dont find it mentioned by eather greener, Hawker or Walsh in their recourdings of the events
I think that the real facts of the mater is that between the later half of the 19th century and the mid 20th century with the resurgence of Muzzleloading popularity , we lost a vast amount of information . Luckily we do still have some documentation in the form of records and writings . But these are so sparse that it leaves a lot of questions . It also requires us to accept whats writen as factual based on the reputations of the person writing down the information .
Take Walsh’s writing where he states in 1874
Quote
the target in this case was an ordinary field pad of tough brown paper , thirty six sheet, the Greener in every instance near put pellets through the whole thirty six; the best performance of my gun “Manton “ was twenty- five. Reverting to pattern, I think the Greener gun , at 40 yards, it would have been almost impossible for a snipe to escape .
I omitted to say that we were using No.6 shot, the charge being 3drs and 1 1/ oz shot
At the same time Greener is recording patterns and penetration at 60 yards from what was then modern loads , in the 188 range . While at the same time muzzleloaders were producing scores in the 70’s . that’s un believable event by today’s standards of smokeless powder . Especially when we consider that the loads being recorded were No. 6 shot â€290 pellets per oz “ later records show the amount of shot was raised , so the records are skewed a little if we compare them to prior events . It also should be noted that a lot of times the smaller bores out scored larger bores . So its not uncommon to read of 16 and 20 gage bores scoring much higher the 10 or 12 bore guns .But we have to remember that this is mostly do to the rules of the events . only after those rules are changed to allow those larger bores to use proper loads do we see them start to preform much better
Its also rather fun to read that Rigby himself did not accept Greeners evaluations of the choked bore over the cylinder bore , thinking , in so many words ,that Greener had somehow found a way to cheat ..
Anyway , I could go on and on about this but I think I have made my point .
Somewhere we have lost something and are possibly tainting our opinions on the cylinder bore
For those interested in this subject , one of the easiest writings to find is
Greeners ; The Gun and its Development .
In it you will find a whole set of chapters dedicated to these field trials comparing muzzleloader to breechloader and cylinder bore to choked bore.
But I warn you . Its going to leave you with questions and even more so if you dig into the writings of Walsh , Hawker , Rigby….. And their transitional opinions on choked vs. cylinder bore
im not sure if this will work or not , but here is an" E link" to Greeners book for those that dont have it .
this link is to a pattern faximaly found on page 357.
for those who only quickly scan through a couple pages before and after this link , the long target spread is the recourded penitration test board faxsimalies at 40 yards
but if you scroll up to page 326 thats where you will start reading about the Field trials.
past those pages you will read also where Greener mentions several times about not being able to use a load thats best suited for his choke OR the gage of the gun .
the link is also for all of volume #1 . so the complete 800+ pages
anyway , i hope this link is interesting to some of you and gets you thinking about just what a cylinder bore is capable of when using BP
http://archive.org/stream/gunitsdevelopmen00greerich#page/357/mode/1up
Post by: Uncle Russ on March 07, 2013, 09:15:42 PM
I might add one other little thing.
Books are out there that help clear up the understanding on chokes, pattern's, loads, and all the other things we discuss here on an almost daily basis.
Many of the really good books are out of print, and very hard to find, but if you are determined you will eventually turn up some of these prizes.....and they are to be considered prizes.
You may have to go back and 're-read' a lot of things...read it over, and over again, at least I do.
But, eventually you will start catching on to many of the things we take as granted, many are time proven, and many others are just so much hog-wash, old wives tales, but they refuse to go away.
I have a rather large gun library, by some standards, probably not so big by other standards.
Some of the books I have, I have read through dozens of times....at least "looked-up" things that have often been discussed by the Muzzleloading community.
Some of the answers given in the discussions I have witnessed would hold water, some not.
But that is not the purpose of a book.
A book, IMO, is to provide an individual with knowledge on which to build.....not the total basis of an argument, as the testing medium not only can change, but often does.
Here are some books I would never trade, or loan, I suspect they are my "Go To Books".
I threw "Gunsmith Kinks" I, II, III in the mix because they are nothing more than a short course on D & F, or design and function...or, saying it another way, what purpose a "part" may have in the overall function of any gun and how it works.
Post by: Captchee on March 08, 2013, 04:58:40 AM
but alot of time even the things we know as myths or false hoods , we have to try if for no other reason then to see if it will make a difference in an individual case , where in general it has not effect .
Also the other thing I have often found to be true is that the most valuable information “at least to me “ just gets mentioned in passing . So if your just reading for general knowledge , often time things get missed .
Take for instance the link I posted above . What are we reading . Well differences between cylinder bore and choked bore as it pertained to the FIELD trials right . There is patterns and load data , mixed in with the evolution of the later choke.
But how many of us notice on the first read that there is at least 2 mentions of one barrel , normally the first “concerning SXS†shooting a better pattern then the 2nd barrel ?
Or how about missing the comments about penetration that was being increased by the choke bore
The other thing that at least I missed many years ago when I first read this chapter is that while its about Chokes vs. cylinder bore , there seems to also be a underlying topic about the type of shot as well .
Anyway , what im getting at is as we read , its often beneficial to have in the back of your mind topics which interest you . That way as your reading along , suddenly you go; ???? Now wait a second , what was that again ?
All to often hidden in the page after page of words are little keys to deeper information . They are very easy to miss and simple to over look very quickly
Post by: Riley/MN on December 24, 2014, 09:20:16 AM
Quote from: "Eric Krewson"
All the information I have put together from people who shot round balls out jug choked barrel is there is no difference. Danny Caywood jug choked the barrel of my current build, talking to him on the phone he said people who's barrels he worked on had good accuracy with round balls.
I will know in a few more weeks as my English Fowler is almost done.
Starting to think of spring... HA
Eric, did you ever get to shoot roundballs out of that jug choked smoothbore? How'd she do?
Post by: Smallpatch on December 24, 2014, 12:56:05 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/Smallpatch/Bruce%20Nave%20NE%20Fowler/targets003.jpg)
This is the first 3 rounds out of a 10ga NE Fowler.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/Smallpatch/Bruce%20Nave%20NE%20Fowler/targets001.jpg)
Here's one of shot at 50yds with the same barrel.
Post by: Riley/MN on December 25, 2014, 01:00:39 PM
Post by: Eric Krewson on December 26, 2014, 09:25:03 AM
I shot every load I could think of (patched, bare ball, different wads and powder) and got no better than a 12" group at 25 yards. I was really frustrated and held off on finishing my fowler because I thought it was a dog of a shooter.
I have a 12ga, Colerain 38" English fowler barrel on my gun, when I just started working up a turkey load Mr Wattlebuster from another site gave me his loading info as he had the exact same barrel with Caywood jug choke (full). The shot load he recommended worked very well, I forgot about the round ball load and tried my own combinations with the above mentioned lousy results.
I was out shooting my sorry loads one day, trying more patching, ball combos and thought of Wattlebusters load recommendations. I went to my computer and pulled up the old PM which recommended 100 gr of 1F, .690 ball wrapped in an .018 ticking patch.
I had never loaded that much powder but decided to give it a try, after all I was sure this load wasn't going to improve my groups as nothing had worked in the past. WRONG! My first shot was centered and a couple inches low, next shot through the same hole, third shot made a cloverleaf of the two previous holes.
I kept shooting waiting for the inevitable flier 12" to the side, it never happened.
I was suddenly so happy with my gun that I took it to the woods and killed 5 point with it, then took it to the shop and spent the next week or so finishing it.
What you see in the picture is walnut sealer on the stock, no actual finish. I finished reinletting some parts, the wood had shrunk after I initially put everything together, sanded the barrel, trigger guard and buttplate and greyed them with Oxpho blue, did the final shaping on the rear sight and applied 5 coats of Chambers oil finish to the stock.
I shot the buck a little high and spined him with the first shot, I suspect he jumped the "string" as I had a slight hang fire. My next shot was exactly where I was aiming, through the neck at about 25yards.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/hunting%20stuff/smoothborebuck001_zpsa5c3d6c7.jpg) (http://http)
Post by: Riley/MN on December 26, 2014, 06:04:54 PM