Post by: Stormrider51 on May 20, 2014, 01:21:16 PM
All of this came to mind because I see some very welcome new names on the forum. I'm sure some of them are experienced in muzzleloading but some are beginners. Some may be looking for the cheapest way to try the hobby. Some may be considering buying a gun that is made in India. This time, instead of further clouding already muddy water I'd like to share some experiences and facts.
First, not every gun that is "Made in India" comes from the same company or shop. Lumping all guns made in India together would be like saying all guns made in Italy come from the same factory. And just like Italian guns, some are higher quality than others. In the case of Indian guns you don't need to know the names of all the many makers and keep up with who is good and who turns out junk. You need to learn who the reputable importers are. They have sorted out the good makers for you. I have experience with Middlesex Village Trading Co and recommend them but there are others such as Loyalist Arms who also have good reputations. Do your research. MVTC sold me with their guarantee. The locks on their guns are guaranteed for life. If it ever fails to spark because of a worn frizzen or if a spring ever breaks they will repair or replace it. There is the proviso that the lock must not have been abused or altered but that's true for any manufacturer. I'll also note that Lyman imports flintlock rifles that are known for sometimes having soft frizzens and other lock problems but nobody dumps on them. In fact, they are often mentioned as good starter guns.
I've heard that the guns made in India aren't "authentic" or "historically correct". Again, depending on the maker (importer), that's just not true and the authenticity extends beyond what you might imagine at first glance. My Brown Bess contains no cast steel parts. None. Everything but the barrel is hand forged and filed to shape. The barrel is the only thing that isn't made like they were in the 1700's. Back then a flat piece of steel was heated and wound around a mandrel into a tube. The seam was then heat welded closed. The Indian barrels are made the same way all modern makers do, from seamless steel tubing. They're much stronger than the originals and safer. But back to that hand forged lock. The one on my Bess had a couple of problems when I got it. Okay, three problems. One, the trigger pull was STOUT! Oh, I could get the cock (hammer) to fall but it took a lot of effort. I'll also admit that I'm accustomed to using rifles with double-set triggers. But regardless, the pull was too hard for good shooting. The second problem was related to the first. Even when I got the hammer to drop the sear would often fall into the half-cock notch. This happened because I wouldn't hold the diamond-crushing pressure on the trigger long enough. Third problem, also partially related to the first, the cock would sometimes fail to kick the frizzen completely open. This was a combination of the tumbler dragging on the sear and slowing the cock plus a frizzen spring that was dragging on the lock plate. I could have contacted MVTC and sent the lock back to them for repair/tuning. On the other hand, having been a gunsmith for more than 40 years must have some value. It's not like I hadn't seen these problems before and seen them on locks from well thought of companies. I chose to decrease the sear spring strength by careful filing. Then I polished all the lock parts using stones. That lock has not failed to fire since that time. My sole remaining complaint was the fit of the pan to the frizzen. If I primed the gun and stood it upright the priming would make its way out the rear of the pan through a gap. That was a problem I didn't have a ready fix for so I contacted Peter Plunkett at MVTC. He asked if I was priming the pan with FFg. Ummmm.....no, I'm using FFFFg like I have in every flinter I've owned. He suggested I try FFg and sent me a warranty repair form just in case. So I tried FFg in the pan. I pointed Bess upward, downward, sideways, and rudely shook her. The FFg stayed in the pan. Okay, but this coarse powder is going to make for slower ignition. I wish I could claim even that small victory for my prejudice but the truth is that if there is an increased delay in ignition I can't detect it subjectively.
With the lock working properly, I sat down to do some accuracy testing. I reported the results over on the Smoothbore forum under "Bess Is On The Way!" Suffice to say here that Bess surprised me. She's a shooter.
I'm going to close this with one more point. "India guns blow up!" As I pointed out earlier, not all guns made in India are equal. There are claims that the Indian guns are shipped without the vent being drilled because they are wallhangers and not intended to be fired. No, the fact is that muzzleloaders are considered firearms in that country and as such would be subject to the very restrictive laws and regulations in place. Those laws have become even more restrictive as of 2014. Shipping without the vent hole being drilled avoids the restrictions and tariffs. Again, stick with the good importers. But the fact is that ANY gun can be blown up. There were a rash of exploding muzzleloaders back during the resurgence of interest in muzzleloading guns in the 1970's. There was a flood of muzzleloading guns being imported from places like Italy and Spain. There were a lot of bad stories told about them. Or someone would find great-grandad's old gun in the attic and decide to shoot it. I saw one old gun that burst its barrel. It was obvious from the amount of 100+ year old rust and erosion in the breech area that the gun should have never been fired. There was a common mis-conception that you couldn't pour enough black powder down a barrel to blow it up. A few lunkheads ignored the "BLACK POWDER ONLY!" stamped into the barrel and dumped in a little smokeless instead. In much more recent times CVA imported inline muzzleloaders that had breech plug problems. A number of them failed to stay put with bad results for the shooters. Will My CVA Muzzleloader Blow Up? (http://www.randywakeman.com/WillMyCVAMuzzleloaderBlowUp.htm)
Could I blow up my Bess? Sure I could, but it's no more likely to happen than it has been with any other muzzleloader I've ever owned and the cause wouldn't be the gun, it would be me. I could overload it. I could allow it to rust inside until the barrel is dangerously weak. I could do something stupid.
So to all the newcomers out there, Welcome! If you have the money I recommend that you buy a custom gun from one of the reputable makers. We have some right here in the TMA. You won't be sorry. But if you aren't sure about this hobby or simply don't have the money to afford a custom and don't mind a smoothbore, don't shy away from the guns "Made in India". Stick with the reputable importers and you will be fine. Yes, they may need a little tuning but so may a Lyman GPR flinter. And if your taste runs to something like the Brown Bess as a do-everything gun that will shoot ball or shot, think about this. You can spend $1,300 for that Pedersoli Brown Bess that truly isn't "authentic" or "historically correct" (although it is generally accepted as such by re-enactment groups) or you can spend half that much for one from India. Most of us were drawn to this hobby because we want to do things the "old way". For me at least, having a gun that contains no cast parts and not made using modern machinery adds to that attraction.
Have fun and be safe,
Storm
Post by: Hanshi on May 20, 2014, 01:40:05 PM
Great post, Stormrider.
Post by: Uncle Russ on May 20, 2014, 04:49:33 PM
I completely and totally agree with everything you said.
FWIW; When you started your post you mentioned personal experience and lots of Internet hearsay, and that my friend is an ongoing problem.... IMHO.
It is not as bad today as it was, say, 12 / 15 years ago, but it is still bad enough.
In the early days there was what is sometimes referred to as, "old wives tales" insofar as the proper witches brew for lube, facing East when loading yer powder because the sitting fox on Trade Guns always faced East , always place the sprue on the ball down for 'best' ranging accuracy, and on, and on......thankfully most of this nonsense has gone by the wayside.
On the other hand there were many SME's (subject matter experts) on all guns and equipment when in fact they only owned one rifle and an assorted collection of gear. Still yet, whoever taught them to load and shoot that one rifle was indeed the greatest muzzle loading guru that ever lived, because the same SME's spouted the virtues of he said, they said, I read, he told Sam, Sam told John, and John told me, plus that's what my great grand-pa did.....so it's gotta be fact and you just have to accept it.
Thankfully, through folks like yourself, along with a few others, we have moved far beyond that.
I know for a fact that MVTC, Lyman, T/C, CVA, has brought us a host of good quality shooting rifles at very reasonable prices over the years.
I also know there was good, better, and best in the mix....some were good, others were better, and a few were, and still are, some of the best.
All this begs the question......was that sour apple actually sour? or was our perception of that apple soured from reading the ramblings of someone on the internet that became disillusioned because this reasonable priced gun he had just purchased didn't perform exactly as some others that he had read or heard about?
Personally, I still believe strongly in the old adage that, when it comes to shooting, every rifle is a science within itself, and every shooter must feel the very pulse of that particular rifle before it can ever fall into the class of a "best or better rifle".
If you're an old-timer, my advise is to read, and re-read, the internet postings, and then ask yourself if your own person experience bears out what you just read.
If you're a new-comer, read and ask questions...lots of questions. And then, with a little luck, folks like Stormrider51 will come along and do their best to help you separate real fact from total fiction.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Voyageur on May 20, 2014, 05:16:34 PM
Post by: Thunder Bay on May 20, 2014, 09:05:05 PM
Post by: Captchee on May 21, 2014, 07:46:45 AM
I actually did some , lets say deeper then most , research into this subject a couple years back when I took a gun on trade without recognizing the proof markings .
There should still be a thread on here about those findings as well copies of e-mails , names of officials in India as well as links to the actual laws of India governing firearms
As you said there are many different makers for Indian imports . However I must disagree with a couple of your points
First the people of India are aloud to own firearms . Many do but a lot simply cannot afford them.
Second is about the vent hole issue..
I was very surprised to find out that India has Very firearms manufacturing laws and they do consider muzzleloaders to be firearms . As such , any and ALL firearms that are capable of expelling a projectile is covered under the government laws . They cannot be exported without heavy tax . Can not be exported without passing IOF inspections and proofing’s . can not be exported without having full records of the licensed manufacture along with complete records showing every part, its identification number date of manufacture ……
Now on top of that private manufactures cannot export firearms from India .
In other words its nothing like what we do here in this country .
Please understand that im not suggesting anything about quality here . What im saying is that these guns are not classified as firearms when they leave India . They fall under the handicraft/curio etc so as to get around the Government laws regulating firearms in that country .
As such your are most certainly correct in your point about purchasing from a retailer with a good reputation as they are the ones insuring that the guns they sell meet some level of quality .
Also as Voyageur and you both pointed out , they are not all the same in that some may never have been made to be anything but a wall piece.
As I sated earlier I did some research on this very subject . I did some looking on the forum and here is the link to that information which i posted here back in 2009 . Myself I found it very interesting . again it covers actual India's my findings on the IOF . what some of the laws are and copies of actual e-mails from IOF officials .
SXS ID
http://traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12455&hilit=India+proof+mark
Post by: Stormrider51 on May 21, 2014, 11:49:06 AM
Thank you for correcting my mistakes. I may get all this straight one of these days. Some of your information is somewhat out-dated, however. While it is true that Indian citizens may technically own firearms the reality is that the requirements are now such that it is virtually impossible to do so. It became even more difficult with the enactment of new laws that took effect this year. Guns in India: Firearms, armed violence and gun law (http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/india)
Here's a news article that partially explains the back-story. Police battle illegal arms, liquor ahead of India elections - Channel NewsAsia (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapacific/police-battle-illegal/1055560.html)
The first website, and information from importers, is what I based my statements on.
Storm
Post by: Captchee on May 21, 2014, 06:06:47 PM
frankly however none of that maters to us . what does mater is the manufacturing laws . Since India does manufacture for many militaries around the world , those manufacturing laws still are the base for their export. So no mater how you cut it these guns that are coming in without IOF markings , mean that they are not considered firearms by the Indian Government . A government which has very strict laws concerning firearms . as such they are at being seen as non fire able curios, which are then being , for good or bad , converted here.
. That to me , begs the question of how long before the government of India catches on. Which also leads to the question I could never get an answer to ; does the government of India then have a standard of which they hold manufactures of curios to ?
IE basically is there a line of quality or completion that cannot be crossed ???
Myself I don’t know and again never got an answer to that
Post by: snake eyes on May 21, 2014, 07:17:07 PM
a great deal on a subject I had never given much thought to.
Thanks!
snake-eyes
Post by: Stormrider51 on May 21, 2014, 11:51:39 PM
Storm
Post by: Feltwad on May 24, 2014, 04:26:56 PM
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
Post by: RobD on May 28, 2014, 06:16:42 AM
i will say this - IF you have the coins, go for the "best" and eschew the "probably questionable". there's a solid reason why the best are simply The Best.
lacking fundage will always be the harder row to hoe; perfectly doable, but perhaps with more elbow grease ... and maybe requires spending some more loot, to boot.
imho and ymmv.
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 01, 2014, 11:46:48 PM
Much has been made of the fact that Indian guns are not "proofed" and there are no government standards on their manufacture. I'm sorry folks but the exact same thing holds true of black powder guns made in the United States of America. We have no black powder proof houses and there are no minimum standards or regulation on the manufacture of black powder muzzleloading firearms. If there were, all of the small custom makers would go out of business because the cost of proving their guns were safe to fire would be prohibitive. Just something to think about.
Storm
Post by: greggholmes on June 02, 2014, 07:47:16 PM
My India bess was the right price for me and acceptable quality. It shoots better then I do so win win.
Post by: Feltwad on June 03, 2014, 03:55:27 AM
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
Post by: Captchee on June 03, 2014, 05:23:56 AM
Quote
Here in the UK the proofing of import guns rifles etc be it Muzzle loading or breech loading is law and must go through proof at Birmingham or London proof houses
ok but what does that include felt wad ?
In other words if I build what were to look like a Bess , but had no flash hole , or lets even say a lock that as built would not function properly ,. Would it have to go through proof if I sent it to you ?
What if all you had to do was change out the tumbler in the lock or drill a flash hole so as to make the gun functional. Do you then have to send it off for proofing after you do the work ?
Post by: Feltwad on June 03, 2014, 04:29:39 PM
Maybe I should have explained this better .If the gun is a repro muzzle loading or a modern breechloader it will have to be proofed at the Proof Houses the only excemptions are those which the Proof House accept the foreign proof such has Belgiam , Italy and Spain .Some makers in these countries and others do not have them proofed so if they are exported to the UK then they must be proofed.You mentioned a gun which had no touchhole which could be difficult to import. also if the retailer did manage to import one for to use and sell on it it would have to have the touchhole drilled by a proper gunsmith and entered for proof, once proofed and if the owner could not collect it in person from the gunsmith it would then be posted to a Regested Firearms Dealer who would then transfered it the the owners shotgun or firearms certificate.
British proof laws are very strict and if not carried out in accordance with the law can end up with a heavy fine or a prison term ,to explain them in full would take many paragraphs .
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
Post by: tiger13 on July 13, 2014, 08:44:54 AM
Post by: greggholmes on July 13, 2014, 07:38:44 PM
we need more starter guns on the market.
Post by: Detached on July 13, 2014, 07:51:07 PM
Post by: tiger13 on July 13, 2014, 08:27:57 PM
Post by: Stormrider51 on July 14, 2014, 01:53:08 AM
I sold both my MVTC and Pedersoli Besses and moved on, not because they weren't good guns but simply because a Bess eats huge chunks of lead and mastodons are scarce game animals in Texas. I'm now shooting a 20 g/.62 cal smoothbore that I believe was built by Track of the Wolf or at least from a kit offered by them. It's my fifth smoothbore. My first was a Centermark Fusil Fin, the second by custom builder Tom Knight, the third from MVTC, and the fourth by Pedersoli. I'm still doing load development with the newest one but as of this date the hands-down winner in the accuracy department was the Bess from MVTC. I don't know if this holds true of all MVTC muskets and frankly would be surprised if it did but that was my experience. Yours could be completely different.
My advice today remains the same as when I first wrote. Buy the best gun you can afford but don't avoid the guns Made in India. Know the good importers and accept that your gun may have issues to be resolved after the purchase. The same could hold true for that Lyman GPR or a Traditions, or any factory made gun.
Storm
Post by: Feltwad on July 14, 2014, 05:00:48 AM
Quote from: tiger13
And once it goes through the proofing process, there is nothing to say that any gun wont blow up on the next shot.
If a gun is proofed at both Birmingham and London proof houses it is unlikely that it will blow up on the next shot providing there is no barrel obstuction . These two proof houses are the best in the world .
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
Post by: Captchee on July 14, 2014, 07:26:37 AM
Quote from: "Feltwad"
Quote from: "tiger13"And once it goes through the proofing process, there is nothing to say that any gun wont blow up on the next shot.
If a gun is proofed at both Birmingham and London proof houses it is unlikely that it will blow up on the next shot providing there is no barrel obstuction . These two proof houses are the best in the world .
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
i would agree Feltwad .
however the proof ,no mater who does it , is not a guarantee of any real term dependability . .
There are any number of things that will take a barrel out of proof . thus most everything but the newest of firearms that have been proofed should IMO be considered out of proof
All the proof really does is to document independently that at the time the barrels or complete gun , were submitted , they met the standards of proof .
It should also be noted that proof doesn’t mean quality . It only means that at the times of submission, the barrel or entire gun , withstood the tests .
In the case of the IOB , its more then a proof , it’s a complete documentation of ever part , piece , the maker of as well as numerous levels of proof .
That however isn’t the issue as these do not go through a proofing house of any kind .
So people then have to trust that the retail importer , has set a given safe standard . On top of that , hopefully they do tests to insure that standard is maintained .
If we compare that with the Spanish and Italian imports , they all go through proof that is defined by their governments . Now we can disagree with the quality or level of that proof , its doesn’t change the fact the barrels for those pieces have been submitted in one form or another , to proof , as distended to be used as a working firearm.
Again this isn’t to say im against the India , Imports . Im not . I in fact have a couple . However those also went through IOB proofs and were not built as curiosities with the intent of making them functional .
I would also agree that we need entry level options .
However , what I find to be rather interesting is that these are not really entry level pieces in that they are not intended for the average Joe who wants to go shoot some BP . Instead they are marketed more for the re-enactor market . Oddly enough its that market demographic that seems to be crying the loudest about these .
While it is also true that there has always been an cry concerning imports like CVA , Traditions , Ultra Hi , Jukar …….. That cry had at least some base . Even though the majority of it was really IMO based more around the product being cheaper then we could produce here .
In this case we don’t really have that . Myself I don’t see the custom market being effected by these imports anymore then it was effected by the CVA , Jukar , Lyman products .
Since we do not and frankly cannot provide a low cost entry level product here in the US , there is no real challenge on that level .. After all , it only takes just a few minutes of adding up the cost of parts to quickly understand that even to build a semi custom piece, adding in paying ONLY minimum wage , will through you cost , well over the 1000-1500.00
OH and by the way , one might want to look at the cost of a Pedersoli . For that mater the cost of replacing the parts on a cheep Pedersoli
So that leaves us with the real warnings about these guns , coming from those who have owned and had problems . Those who have seen others with problems OR those who just continue to repeat what they read , with no real experience on the subject .
So I would say that for someone just getting started , these maybe an option . However I would highly recommend doing your research and ONLY by from the most reputable company . Also realize that what re-enactors find to be suitable and what folks who use their pieces to actually fire a projectile are 2 complete different things . So be sure to research both camps for recommendations on where to purchase or who to purchase from
Post by: tiger13 on July 14, 2014, 07:42:45 AM
Quote from: "Feltwad"
Quote from: "tiger13"And once it goes through the proofing process, there is nothing to say that any gun wont blow up on the next shot.
If a gun is proofed at both Birmingham and London proof houses it is unlikely that it will blow up on the next shot providing there is no barrel obstuction . These two proof houses are the best in the world .
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
As long as it is made by the hands of man, it is subject to failure at any time. And I will respectfully leave it at that.
Post by: Feltwad on July 14, 2014, 08:05:56 AM
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
Post by: James Kelly on July 15, 2014, 09:33:34 AM
In Ancient Times there was this very independent American named John Baird, who published the Buckskin Report. John was interested in safety & printed a variety of articles on the subject, including a few letters from me. He got me in touch with some men who had been harmed by their rifles, and I was expert witness in two or three lawsuits. I summed up the results, seventeen burst rifle barrels, in a three-part series which Muzzle Blasts kindly published in last half of 1985. It has since become clear to me that no one, no one, absolutely no one wants to hear bad things about their favorite muzzle loader so I have mostly kept silent on the matter. If you do want details, find those 1985 Muzzle Blasts.
From what I have heard of Indian muskets, including this thread & a report from a respected laboratory who may be a bit thin on muzzle loading knowledge, I prefer not to be on the same range with an Indian musket whilst being fired. Seamless tubing is not always seamless. But that is just me, and I am known in some muzzle loading circles as a real pain in the a-- metallurgist. So be it.
The only Indian gun I examined was an attractive brass barreled blunderbuss marketed by Navy Arms. Mr Forgett had not known that the Indians made it with such a loose fitting breech plug that the plug could blow out. One did, with a hefty blank charge of black powder & newspaper wadding. Fortunately it missed the shooter's head. Just the tips of the threads were a little smeared over. I could screw that plug back in by hand, and rattle it around. The thing was just too loose to use safely. Also, it was machined with a fine thread and any decent mechanic knows NOT to use fine threads in brass. Stuff is too soft.
As far as Indian gun laws I might say log on to indiansforums (Indians for Guns) & peruse a bit.
Post by: Stormrider51 on July 15, 2014, 11:18:37 AM
Something that I don't think has been mentioned is that, barring "smooth rifles", smoothbore guns have relatively thin barrel walls. This means the barrel will fail at a lower pressure than one of its rifle cousins. We have to keep that in mind.
James Kelly tells of a brass blunderbuss with a breechplug that was an accident waiting to happen. And it did happen. Earlier I told of an India musket that I was asked to drill the vent on. The breech had a plug and a narrow strip of metal welded across it. I refused to drill the vent. And it isn't only foreign guns that can have problems. In the late 1970's a friend brought me a longrifle made by a known and respected local builder and asked me to sight it in and work up a hunting load. This was a beautiful gun. Curly maple stock with inlays. It was .45 caliber with a 13/16" barrel. It had drum and nipple percussion ignition. I couldn't wait to shoot it. I started with a 50 grain charge of FFFg. Things were looking very good at 70 grains with the first two shots touching. At the third shot the drum parted company with the barrel and went whizzing away to the right. Have I mentioned that I'm left handed and this was a right handed rifle? All I remember was a huge ball of fire in front of my face and the odor of singed hair. I never did find the drum/nipple so I was left guessing what had happened. The threads in the barrel looked okay and there were flecks of metal in them. I think the drum failed but like I said, that's just a guess. Did I double charge it? I'd swear that I didn't but then again if I remembered doing it I'd have never squeezed the trigger.
My point is that we are each responsible for the guns we shoot whether they are made in India, Italy, Spain, or one of the premier custom builders. Once again, when it comes to India guns know your importer. I personally would not buy from anyone who doesn't drill the vent before selling. When the gun arrives give it a good going over before you head out to shoot it. Don't exceed the recommended load. I'll shoot on the same range with you.
Storm
Post by: Detached on July 15, 2014, 11:26:25 AM
Post by: snake eyes on July 15, 2014, 11:30:30 AM
Quote from: "Stormrider51"
......My point is that we are each responsible for the guns we shoot whether they are made in India, Italy, Spain, or one of the premier custom builders. Storm
Storm,
I think that is one point we can all agree on. :shake [/color]
Post by: Captchee on July 15, 2014, 03:21:24 PM
Quote
James Kelly tells of a brass blunderbuss with a breech plug that was an accident waiting to happen. And it did happen. Earlier I told of an India musket that I was asked to drill the vent on. The breech had a plug and a narrow strip of metal welded across it.yep and lets not forget our own .
Green mountain who just a hand full of years ago miss drilled their nipple holes in their breech plugs .then instead of providing a new plug , they just inserted a heli coil and then sold them to folks as 100% .
Colerain .who no longer provides breeched barrels as they couldn’t seem to learn how to mate the plug properly .
then you have Douglas. who ended up closing up because of lawsuits do to failures of barrels do to them using the extruding process. Yet today people are paying outrageous prices for anything that the think might be a Douglas.
How about Remington. who in the 1930’s , then again in 1950’s and 1960’s also had issues with their barrels and not just muzzleloaders but also center fire.
Post by: mario on July 15, 2014, 07:38:54 PM
Quote from: "James Kelly"
From what I have heard of Indian muskets, including this thread & a report from a respected laboratory who may be a bit thin on muzzle loading knowledge, I prefer not to be on the same range with an Indian musket whilst being fired. Seamless tubing is not always seamless.
Sorry to use you as an example, but...
This is what I cannot understand. People are presented with FACT and OPINION (usually completely uninformed opinion) and they still side with OPINION.
What you basically stated is that the scientific examination of professionals who do this for a living is not sufficient evidence to counteract the OPINION of people who, in some cases, have never shot or handled said item.
As Cap mentioned, even non-tubing gun barrels CAN fail.
Jackie Brown has built 100s of guns and is well-known in re-enacting/ML circles. What does he use for barrels in his under $1000 guns? You guessed it. SEAMLESS TUBING.
Nobody talks smack about his guns.
Mario
Post by: Captchee on July 15, 2014, 08:20:27 PM
And the DOM tubing is rated at 85,000 PSI . which is probably a whole lot greater then what original forged iron barrels would have been
BUT , on top of that that Mario
But if I recall one of the circumstances where and India made gun blew while using blank loads , reported just the opposite.
IE when the gun was inspected by HP White, and Dr. William Bruchey ,they report wasn’t that the material of the barrel was NOT defective and that the barrel burst from an obstruction .
That however wasn’t what many folks wanted to hear .
Hel Don Getz says he uses 12L14 and in fact often points that very thing out when people start in about it being to soft to make a good barrel .
The gun barrels here in the US ? Where exactly would that steel come from ? South America , china ?????. Sure doesn’t come from here
Post by: Tommy Bruce on July 19, 2014, 07:25:49 PM
Post by: James Kelly on July 20, 2014, 02:52:23 PM
I have a little personal experience with seamless tubing, steel and otherwise. First, some heavy wall 1018 seamless tubing (crack on ID, discovered by the line of cutting fluid that showed up while a pistol barrel was being turned) small diameter 4130 seamless (distortion when swamped with a file, residual stress. All my fault see "The Shoemaker's Children go Barefoot") and two special heat resistant alloys in seamless tube, both with seams on the I.D.; 310 (25%chromium 20%nickel) and RA85H (18%chromium 15%nickel 3-1/2%silicon).
Post by: sse on July 20, 2014, 03:56:36 PM
Quote from: "James Kelly"
I did not know that current muzzle loading barrel makers use tubing. Some modern shotgun makers start with 1137Mod (I do not know what the "mod" means) tubing, modern rifle makers start with solid bar. By the way, seamless and DOM are two different things. DOM is tube welded from strip, then cold Drawn Over a Mandrel to get a smooth I.D. Seamless tube starts as a hot steel billet which is pierced and driven over a piercing tool to make a rough tube. This tube is then hot and cold processed to finished size.that's greek to me...
I have a little personal experience with seamless tubing, steel and otherwise. First, some heavy wall 1018 seamless tubing (crack on ID, discovered by the line of cutting fluid that showed up while a pistol barrel was being turned) small diameter 4130 seamless (distortion when swamped with a file, residual stress. All my fault see "The Shoemaker's Children go Barefoot") and two special heat resistant alloys in seamless tube, both with seams on the I.D.; 310 (25%chromium 20%nickel) and RA85H (18%chromium 15%nickel 3-1/2%silicon).
Post by: James Kelly on July 20, 2014, 10:48:43 PM
These cracks are open to the I.D., to the bore. Which means they are damn hard to find without destroying the tube.
These seams/cracks may occur in mild steel tubing, or in $10/pound high nickel alloys, essentially stainless on steroids.
"DOM" tubing, for what it is worth, is welded tubing, not seamless.
Read The Caplock Rifle, by Ned Roberts, to see his opinions on barrels bored from solid versus made from tube.