Post by: RobD on June 07, 2015, 08:49:38 AM
what were they ... and why?
Post by: Captchee on June 07, 2015, 07:55:13 PM
smooth bores mostly . in the south you had spanish muskets , mixed with english muskets and trade rifles . the more north the more common the french and mix of english
Post by: RobD on June 07, 2015, 08:45:16 PM
Post by: Captchee on June 07, 2015, 08:59:55 PM
Post by: RobD on June 07, 2015, 09:36:49 PM
Quote from: "Captchee"
you said prior to and during did you not
yessir.
Post by: Captchee on June 08, 2015, 08:05:31 AM
Case in point Tecumseh is said not to have taken up the rifle tell well into the 19th century . His mentor
Dragging canoe never did . Corn stalk , Bushy head , Shote , Old hop , I have never read of an account of them owning a rifled gun .
Old tassel is said to have owned such a rifle but that was later then you time frame
Again , in the south , you had the Spanish . , North , predominantly French . In the middle the English .
With the franch and the Spanish , the firearms trade for the most part consisted of what was used to protect the ships , then be off loaded and sold to their citizens . Governors also had the power to use items in trade .
The French followed much the same policy . The English however set up very deep trade routes , very early on . They also had a complete system that produced trade items that were sent to their colonies ..
Just prior to the American revolution the rifle was far more prevalent .
The thing about peter is that he makes a lot of these little statements . He however puts no context to them as to who and when
Post by: RobD on June 08, 2015, 08:15:26 AM
then, as fur and hide bearing animals became scare, due to over-hunting by native americans as mainly trade-goods for long guns, there was a move to rifled barrels in order to harvest game at longer distances. n'est pas? if so, what were these rifles, their typical barrel length and caliber, and their origins?
i'm thinking that at the embryo of the F&I war the smoothbore was favored as the better warfare long gun by all, and became the object of native american warriors. again, if so, what were these rifles, their typical barrel length and caliber, and their origins?
of the few manufactured "trade guns" offered ...
* lyman's "trade rifle" is at best a late 18th and early 19th century long gun, and has no place in the early to mid 18th century.
* pedersoli offers an 'indian trade musket" that appears to have much going for it, BUT with the exception of its short 36" barrel length. or was that short barrel length applicable to the long guns used by early 18th century native americans?
(http://www.dixiegunworks.com/images/FR3170.JPG)
* OR, perhaps a pedersoli brown bess musket could have been what some native americans used within that era?
(http://www.dixiegunworks.com/images/FR0810.JPG)
Post by: mario on June 09, 2015, 09:10:42 PM
Quote from: "rfd"
it would seem that in the nor'east, and in the early 1700's, the smoothbore was the predominant long gun, and the prime object of native americans. what was that typical smoothbore, its caliber, and how long the barrel? these were specific "trade" muskets? and if so, what was their design?
It wasn't until after the F&I that you see a standard pattern in English trade guns. Previously, they were simply light, inexpensive fowling pieces.
Very generally speaking they follow the lines of the sporting guns of the time. Barrels of 44"+, Somewhere between .58 and .66 caliber or so.
Quote from: "rfd"
...if so, what were these rifles, their typical barrel length and caliber, and their origins?
The surviving examples of English-made trade rifles I've come across are .54 cal+, with barrels about 44" in length. These were simply copies of Lancaster produced rifles brought to England and copied by their gun-makers.
Quote from: "rfd"
i'm thinking that at the embryo of the F&I war the smoothbore was favored as the better warfare long gun by all, and became the object of native american warriors. again, if so, what were these rifles, their typical barrel length and caliber, and their origins?
See above comment.
Quote from: "rfd"
of the few manufactured "trade guns" offered ...
* lyman's "trade rifle" is at best a late 18th and early 19th century long gun, and has no place in the early to mid 18th century.
* pedersoli offers an 'indian trade musket" that appears to have much going for it, BUT with the exception of its short 36" barrel length. or was that short barrel length applicable to the long guns used by early 18th century native americans?
There are no currently manufactured trade guns suitable for the 18th century. All are custom or semi-custom guns. The Lyman gun is just an "old-tymey"-looking gun and not based on any actual example. The Pedersoli gun is much closer to a 19th century NorthWest Gun (although not a true copy).
Quote from: "rfd"
* OR, perhaps a pedersoli brown bess musket could have been what some native americans used within that era?
All I have come across shows that no warrior or hunter wanted to lug a 10lb gun around. Carry 25 .600" balls in one pocket and carry 25 .735" balls in the other and you'll see the other reason.
Mario
Post by: RobD on June 09, 2015, 09:34:42 PM
so ... perhaps an early colonial indian trade long gun could most likely be a relatively lightweight full stock smoothbore, .54 to .62, 42" to 48" barrel.
n'est pas?
any half stocks?
Post by: prairie dog on June 09, 2015, 10:56:56 PM
If you are concerned with historical accuracy forget the factory made trade guns, none are correct. For a little more money you can get a very good replica from North Star West or other semi-custom builder either in kit form, in the white, or finished.
You are doing your homework correctly. Research, then decide what fits your persona, place, and time. I can't begin to stress how important it is to get a quality lock for any flintlock gun.
Good luck and be sure to let us know what you get.
Post by: RobD on June 10, 2015, 05:32:35 AM
for the proper indian trade musket (or rifle), i'd surely need to commission a proper build.
thanx to all.
Post by: mario on June 10, 2015, 07:52:28 AM
Quote from: "rfd"
the closest to what i think is considered a nor'east indian trade long gun would be the pedersoli indian trade musket - it has what appears to be all the proper features (caliber, stock, large trigger guard) .... Except that the barrel length is at least 6" too short.
Nope. Pedersoli is an attempt at a later type, NorthWEST trade gun. Not really close at all when you compare.
If you want a Northeastern-ish trade gun for the mid-18th century:
Bumford Trade Gun (http://www.flintriflesmith.com/Antiques/bumford_tradegun.htm)
These (aka Type G/Carolina Gun) were traded up and down the eastern seaboard and carried by white and NDN alike in the mid 18th century.
Mike Brooks and Clay Smith are 2 of the handful that make them these days. Mine is one of Mike B.'s.
Mario
Post by: RobD on June 10, 2015, 08:00:33 AM
Post by: Captchee on June 10, 2015, 08:12:06 AM
I cant really add more then what Mario has posted other then to say that as far a something like a bess . Most likely it would have been a battle field pick up and most likely only held just long enough to trade it for something proper .
Post by: RobD on June 10, 2015, 08:15:21 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/82h6XyQ.jpg)
Post by: Captchee on June 10, 2015, 08:23:37 AM
take a look at Mario's link of the Bumford or look up Type G trade gun
Post by: RobD on June 10, 2015, 08:40:23 AM
clay smith guns has some kits that look interesting ....
Post by: RobD on June 25, 2015, 07:32:46 AM
Quote from: "rfd"
thanx charles - i get it now.
clay smith guns has some kits that look interesting ....
... but instead i bought a very nice muskrat & holland .58 smoothie ...
(http://www.choppix.com/keb/024-full.jpg)
(http://www.choppix.com/keb/024-side1.jpg)