Traditional Muzzleloading Association

The Center of Camp => People of the Times => Topic started by: Sharp Shooter on May 16, 2006, 06:06:19 PM

Title: What was a Longhunter
Post by: Sharp Shooter on May 16, 2006, 06:06:19 PM

What is a longhunter? How are they different from plainsmen and mountainmen?

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Post by: Eric S Campbell on May 16, 2006, 07:08:09 PM

longhunter or market hunters hunted for months at a time to years at a time before returning to the east to trade in their furs.then supplied themselves again.they were pretty much the mountain men of their time!i will write more later.im sure others have some good points!thanks.............eric

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Post by: Sharp Shooter on May 17, 2006, 01:25:25 PM

So they would be like a mountainman only they would wait longer to trade thier goods... Right?

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Post by: Hota on May 17, 2006, 02:57:00 PM

They were like mountain men only they were from an earlier time period 1740-1790 and were more along the eastern frontier as opposed to the west.

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Post by: Eric S Campbell on May 17, 2006, 03:03:23 PM

mike rumping may be able to help some more on this.as far as i know dan boone started out hunting around his area in the yadkin but didnt go to far.then after a few years he formed a group and they went over the mountains into the ohio valley.they stayed over the winter and came back late the naxt fall if i remember correctly.

i think longhunter were mostly in the ohio valley from ohio down to georgia mabey lower.i think danny boy went down to florida but didnt find much game.so market hunter could have hunted a month or two or hunted around their house and traded skins,or they could have been years at a time before they tradded furs in.opposed to mountain men who had a pretty much once a year trade at vous unless they went to a settlement.just my two cents.thanks................eric

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Post by: faithtreker on October 12, 2006, 06:35:19 PM

If you really want to know about the Longhunter, do an internet search on Kasper Mansker or Robert Crockett.

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Post by: mike rumping on October 12, 2006, 09:26:27 PM

In 'THE LONG HUNTERS' by Emory L. Hamilton it says the Long Hunter was peculiar to Southwest Virginia, only, and nowhere else on any frontier did such hunts ever originate. True, there were hunters and groups of hunters on all frontiers in pioneer days, but they were never organized and publicized as the long hunts which originated on the Virginia frontier. Most, if not all of the long hunts originated on the Holston in the vicinity of present day Chilhowie, but were made up of hunters who lived on both the Clinch and Holston rivers. The idea of this manuscript is to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that these long hunters were native to the area and were land owners, or residents along the waters of these two rivers. Perhaps no group in history, who contributed so much to the knowledge of the topography of our country, have been so nearly completely by-passed by historians as have the long hungers of the late colonial days. In almost every instance when the pioneer settler moved toward the extreme frontier, he had long since been preceded by the long hunter. When the first settlers were arriving at Wolf Hills (Abingdon) and Cassell's Woods in 1768 and 1769, the long hunters had long ago by-passed these points and were then hunting far away in the Ohio and Cumberland river basins of Kentucky and western Tennessee. Most of the rivers and streams, gaps, salt licks, mountains and valleys had long ago been named by these hunters. When the first settlers arrived, they, in most cases, adopted the names bestowed by the long hunters on natural land marks, with very few changes, and we are still using most of them after a lapse of nearly two centuries. Dr. Thomas Walker, on his trip to the Ohio, entered in his Journal on April 9, 1750, this statement: "We traveled to a River, which I supposed to be that which hunters call Clinche's River, from one Clinch, a hunter who first found it." (1) This entry was made almost twenty years before a settlement was made on the Clinch River and leaves little doubt as to how the river got its name. In the annals of American history there is no braver lot than these early hunters. Not only did they endure the rigorous winters in crude shelters, but the danger of sickness, privation, exposure, hunting accidents, and the very real and ever present danger of being scalped by the Indians. They were especially disliked by the Indians, being looked upon as robbers of their hunting grounds, which they truly were, and also, as forerunners of the ever-spreading, land-clearing, soil-tilling settlers.  Castleton Brooks who was quite well-to-do, as well as Colonel James Knox, who is referred to as the leader of the long hunters and who later became very wealthy.  There were those who enjoyed, above all else, the spirit of the hunt, among whom were Elisha Wallen, William Carr, Isaac Bledsoe, and others, who, all their lives were hunters and nothing but hunters. The last answer, but certainly not the least, was the profit derived from these hunts. It was not uncommon for a hunter to realize sixteen to seventeen hundred dollars for his season's take, and this was far in excess of what he could earn in almost any other lucrative endeavor. The hides and pelts were sold along the coast, where animals were no longer plentiful, and in England, for making leather, especially buffalo skins. The British market was lost at the outbreak of the Revolutionary War and the long hunts were never again pursued after the Revolutionary War began.
The long hunters usually went out in October and returned the latter part of March, or early in April. Their winter's take consisted of both fur pelts and hides, especially the hides of buffalo which were wantonly slaughtered for the hides only, the carcass left to be devoured by animals and vultures. There are recorded events where hundreds and, a few times, where thousands were slain, and certainly the Indian was justified in his feelings that his hunting grounds were being robbed. The best descriptions of the long hunter have been left to us by John Redd, who knew many of them intimately, both in his native Pittsylvania County, and also in Powell Valley when he came out to Martin's Station in 1775. (2) According to Redd, the long hunters seldom hunted in parties larger than two or three men. Their reasons for this were two-fold; first, larger parties were more apt to scare game away, and secondly, the Indians were less likely to become suspicious of a small group robbing their hunting grounds, not to mention that smaller parties were less likely to be discovered by the Indians. Redd tells a very interesting story about Powell Valley that was related to him by the long hunter, William Carr. "Twelve miles south of Martin's Station on Powell River, there was a very rich piece of bottom land called 'Rob Camp'. In this there was the remains of an old hunting camp from which the land took its name. Some five years before Martin's Station was settled, *three men, with two horses each, and with their traps, guns and other necessary equipment for a long hunt, settled down in the bottom above alluded to, built a camp and spent the fall, winter and part of the spring there in hunting."
The long hunters went out together in large parties, built a station camp, then fanned out in twos and threes to range and hunt over large areas. The first known station camp established in Powell's Valley was that of Elisha Wallen in 1761. It is thought his party consisted of eighteen or nineteen men, but since no list has been preserved, only the names of a very few are known certainly to have been in the party. Wallen's Station camp, set up at the mouth of Wallen's Creek, was probably like other station camps, built of poles, sometimes only eight by ten feet, covered with puncheons or bark, walls on three sides, the front open, along which a fire was built for warmth. Upright poles were set up - often a forked pole was driven into the ground, with a cross pole on which the bark or puncheons were laid, sloping toward the back in order to drain melting snow or rain away from the fire. This type of shelter was known as "half-faced" camps. Other times an extra large, already-fall tree or large rock was used for the backwall of such a camp shelter. Some of Wallen's party are said to have seen the eleven-year-old carving of the name of Powell and so named the Valley, river and mountain. Ambrose Powell had been a member of Dr. Thomas Walker's exploring party of 1750." (6) "Redd says that when he knew Wallen on Smith's River in Pittsylvania County in 1774, he was then some forty years old and had been a long hunter for many years before. That he usually hunted on a range of mountains lying on the east of Powell's Valley and from Wallen the mountain took its name. Wallen described the ridge and surrounding country on which he hunted as abounding in almost every known specie of game. The animals and birds had been intruded on so seldom that they did not fear his presence, but rather regarded him as a benefactor, but soon learned to flee from his presence." "Wallen, along with the Blevinses and Coxes, who were connected with him by marriage, lived on Smith's River in Pittsylvania County in 1774. They owned no land, but were squatters. During the Revolutionary War, the Virginia Legislature passed a law that British subjects who owned land must come in and take the oath of allegience or their lands would be confiscated.
This only one of many well written articles about the long hunters.  If you would like to read the whole article, it can be found at :
http://www.geocities.com/the_long_hunters/index.html (http://www.geocities.com/the_long_hunters/index.html)
I hope this helps a little.
Mike

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Post by: Two Steps on October 12, 2006, 10:02:48 PM

Good reading Mike.  Thanks.
Al

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Post by: Fletcher on December 31, 2008, 02:41:08 PM

This was such good reading by Mike that I thought I might take it to the top  'TTT'  since there seem to be a lot of new faces in the last couple years.

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Post by: Minnesota Mike on January 08, 2009, 10:48:26 AM

Very cool. Thanks Mike.

r/
MM

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Post by: Eric S Campbell on January 08, 2009, 04:24:11 PM

A great read for sure! Thanks Mike! I added it to my favorites.

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Post by: tg on February 07, 2009, 08:38:09 PM

"What is a longhunter?"

 As a general rule of thumb, a guy about six inches taller than a shorthunter

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Post by: sse on February 08, 2009, 08:04:23 AM

Quote from: "tg"

"What is a longhunter?"

 As a general rule of thumb, a guy about six inches taller than a shorthunter

We're going to need sources for that kind of assertion...( )

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Post by: Hank in WV on February 08, 2009, 10:39:58 AM

Can you assure us how you assertained that assertion? It may assuage any misgivings we may have assumed. (don't ask me where this all came from. Killing time waiting for spring).

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Post by: Mike Ameling on February 08, 2009, 10:56:53 AM

One major product that the long hunters sought were DEER HIDES.  Deer were hunted for their hides - for making leather back East or over in Europe.  Hundreds and thousands of "half dressed" deer hides were hauled back to the Eastern settlements by those "long hunters".  Half dressed meant fleshed, de-haired, and then dried.  

Jesse Mains has give several good talks on the HIDE trade.   Charlestown was a major destination/shipping point for them.

There is a good book all about the ... hide trade ... of those "long hunters" called

When Skins Were Money

And you might also check out the book Deerskins & Duffels: Creek Indian Trade With Anglo-America, 1685-1815.

But the term "long hunter" or "longhunter" was almost never used back in the original accounts.  It is mostly a modern "term".  Plus the time period and geographical area for them is also fairly restricted - as mentioned above.

A lot of modern ... myth ... has developed all about the "longhunters".

Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

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Post by: Longhunter on February 08, 2009, 12:29:07 PM

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A lot of modern ... myth ... has developed all about the "longhunters".

So then I'm  mythological?... :rotf

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Post by: Mike Ameling on February 09, 2009, 10:47:49 AM

Like any aspect of our "hobby", modern thinking and distorted images have moved in and ... distorted things.  

Just look what has happened to Pirate reenacting since those Pirates of the Carib movies came out of Hollyweird!  They are now FLOODED with johnny depp wannabees staggering around  - and doing it intentionally, not just when drunk.  

Or how many "scouts" had to suddenly be running UP mountains after the most recent Last of the Mohicans movie.  And all those Cherokee Pipe Hawks after The Patriot.  

Hollyweird distorts things.  And then it gets carried over into "accepted" practice and passed on to other people and newbies as "the way" things are done.

Mark Baker's books and videos are a pretty good introduction to the "longhunter".  Just be wary of all the Xerox Clones of him - who used Mark's personal outfit as their sole source of research for their own outfits - some even matching the tears/patches on his clothing.

Mythology abounds in our ... hobby.

Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

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Post by: Uncle Russ on February 09, 2009, 11:32:55 AM

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Mythology abounds in our ... hobby.

Amen Brother!!

I normally use the term "Old wives tales", but I like mythology better, sounds more gentlemanly like.

Uncle Russ...

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Post by: Bovine Scatoligist on February 21, 2009, 12:57:53 AM

"What is a longhunter?"

As a general rule of thumb, a guy about six inches taller than a shorthunter

Wouldn't it be the guy with the worst aim?LOL! Jist a thought!!

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Post by: tg on February 21, 2009, 10:18:28 AM

i sem to recall that for making leather that the spring/summer/fall hides were better just the opposite as for fur bearers, something about the protien and more hide less hair in the warmer months anyone hear of this?

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Post by: LRB on February 25, 2009, 05:41:09 PM

That's my understanding TG.

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Post by: Indiana on February 25, 2009, 08:25:45 PM

If you are interested in longhunters, I HIGHLY reccomend getting a copy of John Curry's "Rockhouses and Rhododendron".  It is very helpful in understanding the lifestyle of the early longhunters.

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Post by: Longhunter on February 25, 2009, 10:04:07 PM

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If you are interested in longhunters, I HIGHLY reccomend getting a copy of John Curry's "Rockhouses and Rhododendron". It is very helpful in understanding the lifestyle of the early longhunters.

I checked with Amazon.com and it's not available..

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Post by: Loyalist Dave on February 26, 2009, 08:32:35 AM

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"What is a longhunter?"

As a general rule of thumb, a guy about six inches taller than a shorthunter

The ladies say it's a few inches longer than a short hunter!  HA!

Speaking of Mark Baker clones, aka "Brownies" I saw Mr. Baker at an event, and he was walking about with a mutual aquaintence.  This mutual friend spoke to me at first light the following morning, and told me that Mark was going to have some fun with the wanna-be's.  It was very cold and frost was on the grass, and Mark was going to go barefoot (even though he did have greased mocs to wear to keep his feet dry).  He wanted to see how many yahoos also went barefoot when they saw him barefoot, instead of keeping their feet comfortable.  

Sure enough, Mark appeared with some mocs, and the crowd gathered, and Mark removed his mocs, and so did most of them.., promptly.  

LD

Title: "Rockhouses and Rhododendron"
Post by: mike rumping on February 26, 2009, 09:16:49 PM

I saw you're thinking of getting a copy of John Curry's "Rockhouses and Rhododendron", try getting him at   boone1773@Yahoo.com  or call him at (765) 342-4242, and tell him I gave the information to you, OK?  Not
sure if that's his phone# anymore but you can also get him at :    
Dry Fork Publishing
PO Box 304
Harrodsburg, Ky.  40330
Mike

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Post by: Indiana on February 27, 2009, 12:52:09 AM

Yeah, John only sells the book through himself.  I bought my copy directly through him last summer at Friendship.  I wouldn't wait long to order a copy though, because he has said there will not be a second printing.  It's a fantastic book and the book itself is constructed in a very old fashioned way.  

http://dryforkpublishing.com/ (http://dryforkpublishing.com/)

That website has info on the book and contact info for ordering a copy.

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Post by: Longhunter on February 27, 2009, 06:51:15 PM

Holy moley ...that's a pricey book.. :Doh! ..I sent my check in anyway...what goods money if ya don't spend it???  

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Post by: Longhunter on March 07, 2009, 11:03:15 AM

I got my autographed copy of John Currys book, "Rockhouses and Rhododendron" today. It looks like a great book with lots of pictures...me like pichers... :sleep

Thanks Indiana and Mike for recommending the book....  

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Post by: Christiaan on April 28, 2009, 09:56:18 AM

In South African currency that is an awful lot of money. My birthday is coming up in May.  I better talk to the lady.  I think that book will be a great birthday present.

I wonder if he can do a credit card cause to get a dollar check is a nightmare.

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Post by: SimonG on April 30, 2009, 12:40:37 PM

If Ron likes the book that is good enough for me, hurry up and sleep more Longhunter and let us know if it is worth the plews.

Christiaan, my vriend Ek is seker ons kan maak 'n boek toon op op jou tuis ...

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Post by: snake eyes on May 01, 2009, 04:02:58 AM

Quote from: "RussB"

Quote

Mythology abounds in our ... hobby.

Amen Brother!!

I normally use the term "Old wives tales", but I like mythology better, sounds more gentlemanly like.
Uncle Russ...

  Russ,
           There is a certain amount of mythology with about
anything dealing with the past. I don't think "the past"
has to be that long ago either. IMO
snake-eyes

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Post by: Christiaan on May 04, 2009, 12:41:30 PM

Quote from: "SimonG"

If Ron likes the book that is good enough for me, hurry up and sleep more Longhunter and let us know if it is worth the plews.

Christiaan, my vriend Ek is seker ons kan maak 'n boek toon op op jou tuis ...

Goodness me :shock:  ... someone here speaks the heavenly language.  ;)  :shake

Please inform me if you have an idea.  Especially if you can deduct the amount from my credit card and send a check to John Curry.  Baie Dankie. (- pronounced "buy-a donkey" and means Thank you very much)

Title: Re: What was a Longhunter
Post by: Rasch Chronicles on August 10, 2011, 11:16:54 AM

Wow!
An oldie but a goodie.  I learned more in that exchange of information than the whole sum of my previous knowledge!

Great post!

Best Regards,
Albert A Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles (http://http)
Beekeeping- Just Not by Design… (http://http)

Title: Re: What was a Longhunter
Post by: Mad Irish Jack on May 29, 2012, 10:17:26 PM

Prior to the end of Rev War, southwestern Pennsylvania was part of the western most frontier of Virginia. Go to  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannastown,_Pennsylvania and you can read where my local area became a court seat for the same. When folks post and make statements like where things were located in Virginia in that time period, most folks think of where those locations are as of todays information. Our thirteen colonies were not states then. The americas were still trying to find their identity. Just FYI for readers.

Title: Re: What was a Longhunter
Post by: Loyalist Dave on June 05, 2012, 12:16:27 PM

MIJ,

That's interesting as I have found maps that show the border of PA in the Allegheny Mountains, dated 1755, which puts Hannastown in VA, and another map that shows the border is the Monongahela River, dated 1755, and that puts Hannastown in PA.  I wonder if there are documents from the townsfolk that might let us know where they thought they were located?  I know the location was officially part of Westmoreland County as of 1773, but it would be fun to know if the folks thought themselves Virginians or Pennsylvanians prior to that time.

Sure does explain why the governor of VA was so quick to get troops headed north toward what would become Pittsburgh when the F&I war started..., he was defending VA lands, not PA.  

 

LD