Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Craftsmanship => Accoutrements => Topic started by: Salty on December 27, 2025, 12:26:06 PM
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I cast 495 RBs with 99% pure lead. They are supposed to weigh 182 grns. I throw back anything under 182 assuming a bubble.
I have been using 182-183.9
Is that too much of a variance? Could the heavier ball have impurities that could throw off accuracy?
Of you that weigh your RBs, how much of a variance do you keep?
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Frankly, I think that little of a variance doesn't really matter, especially if you are shooting from an unsupported position.
However, if one is in for very competitive bench rest shooting, I would weigh everything: the balls, the powder charges, heck, even the patches.
But, what do I know? Heck, I think by now I have forgotten most everything I ever did know.
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I don't think that variance is bad at all but as bigsmoke says, what do I know.
kevin
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Although I weigh, and try to keep them within + or - 1 1/2 grains, I think what John and Kevin is 100% correct. Human error will eliminate any perfect results you are trying to achieve. Although, if I find any huge differences in weight, those will get recast. [ Invalid Attachment ]
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Thanks fellas.
No powder, it looks like you have them grouped to within 1grain.
Have you found any difference in accuracy between the tree groups?
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I cast more 490's with that mold than any other ones. Therefore I have a lot more of those, and that's the reason for only 1 grain weight difference. In the .530's and .440's, I have more fluctuations in their weights. I haven't been able to see any differences shooting the different weights. Sometimes it doesn't matter how simple I try to keep it, I make it harder than it should be.
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"Pure lead" is generally unobtainable as all lead will have some manner of contaminants. This can vary the projectile weight - far less with lighter weight castings in the 100 to 200 grain range and lots more when the cast weights are well over 400 grains. This is noticeable even with tin:lead alloy cast projectiles.
Improper casting that allows air to remain in the mold is the chief reason for projectile weight variations. That's typically due to pouring in the lead from above the mold rather than "compression casting" the lead into the mold.
Over the decades I've found that "compression casting" lead or lead/alloy projectiles allows the best cast dimensions and weight. Getting both the lead and mold up to an operating temperature that both like best will make for better casting. I heat all molds up separately on a hot plate while waiting for the lead to have well melted. A few first castings are usually discarded, then the real casting begins, which is a process that should be smooth and easy, with no interruptions.
I almost always cast two molds at a time - whilst one is cooling a bit the other is getting poured. Having a timed routine for pouring and extracting is important, with NO interruptions in the casting process. Having a ladle with a snout is the only way to go for compression casting, where the snout gets into the mold sprue hole @ about 45* and then both are smoothly flipped over level (this is the compression part), the ladle is extracted, and remaining ladle lead is allowed to cover the mold top. Pouring lead into a mold without having the ladle in contact with the mold will yield the greatest variant in projectile weight and overall uniformity.
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I totally agree with Rob about the remaining lead in the ladle covering the top of the mold. When I do that, I always seem to have more consistent results.
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I think whats important with casting lead or lead alloy projectiles is keeping the heat cooling uniform. When pouring lead into a mold it's starting to cool during the drop. This is eliminated by getting the ladle snout into the mold. It isn't so much about compression as it is with getting hot lead into the mold ASAP. Dumping the rest of the lead onto the mold top helps for a slower loss of heat. Whatever the reason, compression casting along with a full ladle dump always works best for me, no matter if I'm casting pure lead balls or alloy slicks and bullets.
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Sometimes when I'm using a bag mold and empty the ladle on it, those strands of lead that overflow will not permit the opening of the mold. So they are simply broken off and threw back in the molten lead. Some of those strands snap right off. Some have to be bent back and forth several times to get them to break off. Is that an indication of the purity of the lead or does it indicate something else?
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Sometimes when I'm using a bag mold and empty the ladle on it, those strands of lead that overflow will not permit the opening of the mold. So they are simply broken off and threw back in the molten lead. Some of those strands snap right off. Some have to be bent back and forth several times to get them to break off. Is that an indication of the purity of the lead or does it indicate something else?
I dunno for sure. "Pure" lead shouldn't be brittle and if it is then I'd think it's not "pure" and is either an alloy and/or has contaminants. Melting lead or lead alloy (tin and or antimony) all needs to have the dross removed continually, as well as stirred often.
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I have been buying my lead from RotoMetals. They claim 99% pure but what do I know. Anyway I expect the balls under 182 have air bubbles. But over 183 I bet there is some sort of impurities. But what is heavier than lead that could be mixed in there?
I?m gonna need to read several times how RobD does a compression casting. Sounds interesting. I now pour from a Lee bottom pour.
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After decades of casting with a ladle I tried a Lee bottom pour, thought it would save time and be easier than a ladle ... terrible experience, what a mess, inconsistent weights, gave up and went back to the ladle.
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RobD, do you know of a video demonstrating the compression method? I searched on YouTube but couldn?t find anything.
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RobD, do you know of a video demonstrating the compression method? I searched on YouTube but couldn?t find anything.
Compression casting .45-70 slicks, 1:16 tin:lead alloy ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdjYYbjiIAY
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I'm sure I'll be casting some balls here soon enough.
I used to weight mine but I had so many that were either way under or over that more than half of my run had to be recast. I've since change my lead source but i gave up weighing them .
I use a lee bottom pour and with what I'm very , well ok, pretty sure is pure lead .
I wonder if I can compression pour with that set up , would that work?
Don't see why not.
Great info here fellas
Thanks for the video rob.
Kevin
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I'm sure I'll be casting some balls here soon enough.
I used to weight mine but I had so many that were either way under or over that more than half of my run had to be recast. I've since change my lead source but i gave up weighing them .
I use a lee bottom pour and with what I'm very , well ok, pretty sure is pure lead .
I wonder if I can compression pour with that set up , would that work?
Don't see why not.
Great info here fellas
Thanks for the video rob.
Kevin
I would say that at least something like compression casting will work with a bottom pour furnace.
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RobD, thank you!
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Rob, I think that most casting machines utilize the bottom pour method and from what I have seen, they produce good quality projectiles.
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I know this is going to sound a bit anal but since the weather is not conducive to accurate shooting today I using No Powder's method of weighing and separating the (182.0-182.9) into one container. And the (183.0-183.9) into a separate container.
Thanks No Powder for an indoor activity. I'll be test shooting to see if there is a difference. Now if I can just get the shooter to factor out of the equation. He needs a stern "talking-to".
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Rob, I think that most casting machines utilize the bottom pour method and from what I have seen, they produce good quality projectiles.
IME with casting alloy 420-540 grain slicks for long distance BP PPB target guns, either cartridge or percussion - ladle is the usual choice for the best most well cast bullets of that type, where quality is far more important than quantity. I don't see where most cast bullets are used or required for typical smokeless target applications and those are mostly relegated to the jacketed flavors. Handgun bullets is where a quantity is needed and that would suit a bottom pour best.
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Well Salty, good luck with your endeavor to eliminate the shooter part of the equation. I've been trying to do that for near about 40 years and haven't succeeded at it yet.
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....Now if I can just get the shooter to factor out of the equation. He needs a stern "talking-to".
That's relatively easy with a Lead Sled and a hefty weight (or similar manner of bolting down the gun).
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Years ago, when my father would go with me to the range, I'd get my sandbags situated to shoot and he would say "you're not gonna have those bags with you in the woods when you're hunting deer". A very good point he had. But I still used the bags while shooting when at the range.
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Bags or bipods are fine, I use 'em all the time, but none will eliminate the shooter like locking down a gun in a Lead Sled.
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I'm not a big fan of lead sleds for muzzleloaders, Rob. They're undeniably effective with modern smokeless rifles, but muzzleloaders are a different animal altogether. Over the years I'd heard plenty of stories about cracked stocks caused by lead sled use on traditional guns, and I'll admit-- I used to dismiss them as anecdotal or overblown.
That changed when it happened to me.
I cracked the wrist on my .50 T/C Renegade while shooting nothing more than a square load off of a new Caldwell DFT2. No hot-rodding, no abuse-- just the rigid, unforgiving nature of the sled transferring recoil and stress straight into what was apparently the weakest part of this rifle. Unlike modern rifles, muzzleloaders aren't designed to be locked immobile under recoil, and when they can't move naturally, something has to give.
While lead sleds certainly have their place, I don't believe that place is behind a muzzleloader. I'm not suggesting that using one will inevitably spell the end of a traditional long rifle, but there are enough well-documented horror stories floating around to give any careful shooter pause.
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Hadn't heard about issues with muzzleloaders and Lead Sleds, or with any manner of "locking down" a muzzleloader testing I'd done so twice that I can recall, with accuracy testing of several flinter rifles. But I can see yer point with regards to breakage at the wrist area, which for most well proportioned muzzleloaders is quite a small area. I will take your experiences under advisement, and thank you!
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There's an axiom in precision shooting, "the name of the game is the same" referring to the belief that eliminating variables leads to more consistency. I'm not arguing that point, but it often ignores the biggest variable in my group sizes: me as a shooter. I try to control what you can, but I don't want to spend so much time chasing hardware variables that I forget to focus on the shooter. Practice more. Dryfire more.
I started casting using a borrowed .490 mould and a cast-iron ladle heated on a gas stove. I got occasional fliers--probably me, but I always wondered. Over the years I got curious about possible flaws affecting accuracy. For about a decade I had a cast-bullet business (didn't make much money but I learned a lot). Different people get different results with different techniques; part of this is probably equipment/alloy related. I'm a bit CDO about casting (CDO is like OCD, but with the letters in the proper order as they should be). What works for me may or may not work for anyone else. That's life.
When doing experiments, breaking in a mould, etc, I use lead from Rotometals to avoid unknown contaminants (while their lead isn't "pure", 99.9% lead is closer to "pure" lead and more consistent than I can salvage from scrap). I use an IR thermometer to track temps of the mould and lead pot, and a metronome to get my timing right. I pre-heat the mould on an electric hot pad to get to my starting point, and sometimes use a fan or wet sponge to cool it down when it gets too hot.
I tend to weigh everything I cast, but usually find little variance. Pretty consistently, after throwing out the first few balls cast, without taking particular care after a visual inspection I get a range of -.3gr to +.2 gr. This is with small stuff like .457s or .535s or even .735s. With care, I can usually cast a run of 100+ 45 caliber bullets for the long-range ML with a range of .1gr (i.e. plus-or-minus .05gr). But there's a big qualifier here:
I'm not sure it matters. I've done experiments with long-range round ball shooting (200/300/400 yards) and seen no statistical difference in sizes of multiple 10-shot groups using balls with a .1gr range/a .5gr range/1.5gr range. At closer range (50 yards) using a heavy scoped test rifle and it's best load fired from sandbags on a bench, I got a >5% difference in group sizes when shooting balls sorted into the same .1gr range/.5gr range/1.5gr range.
With handguns I did my tests using a Ransom Rest mounted on a concrete base. My test gun was a Ruger Old Army shooting .457s. I found no statistical difference in group sizes at 50 yards between the .1gr/.5gr balls, and minor differences (possibly not significant if I had compared enough groups) with the 1.5gr balls.
The biggest effect of eliminating possible defects was that it gave me confidence in what I was shooting (it also took away the "flaw in the ball" excuse for fliers, but you can't have everything).
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Just as arrows are more important than the bow, so are bullets at least as important as the bbl.
Cast projectile weight will be commensurate to its +/- tolerance. A cast ball is different than a cast bullet/slick in that the later will require a very well defined base for it/them to have consistent accuracy at all distances, along with a non-defective muzzle, and if rifled that needs to be well defined and of proper twist rate. All of this most notably for long range (as that applies to the firearm and caliber, and its inherent designed usage).
For a muzzleloader cast ball to be as good as it can be for consistent accuracy at all distances it must be of uniform diameter and weight, with no internal voids. And it must be loaded and remain spherical in shape and not grossly distorted. Then there is the matter of patch thickness and lubricant ... or paper cartridge build.
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I'll add, for any cast projectile for "target work" I'll use RotoMetals as either the sole ingredient, or to have tin added for hardness.
Fluxing the metal in the furnace is important as well as frequent stirring and skimming off the dross. I use either a small pea sized bit of candle wax or a 1/3 teaspoon of sawdust.
Personally, I find compression casting and dumping the entire ladle contents on the mold to be effective.
Making sure both the molten metal is up to temperature as well as preheating the mold (either on the edge of the furnace or a hot plate) is a major advantage to getting good drops early on.
Timing is important during casting. An established rhythm helps. Casting with two molds will allow the just cast mold some seconds to achieve a slight cool down for best results (for me).
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One other thing that has not been mentioned for good shooting from an offhand position is upper body strength.
I know that as I have gotten older my aim has not maintained as steady as it once was.
I have also noticed that my strength has visibly decreased over the years as well.
Putting those two factors into the theory, I have no reason to believe that my less than firm stance is to blame.
What this means to me is that I could be casting ball that is 20 grains difference and it wouldn't matter one little, tiny bit. I'd still be throwing them all over the hillside.
This is not so prevalent with a shorter barreled rifle as it is with my long, Tennessee Mountain Rifle with the 42" barrel. And it's a flinter to boot, so I gots a ton of excuses on hand for every miss I have.
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Very well put John. If I go to the range, shoot my long range target, then a few shots to familiarize myself with the trigger pull on the gun I'm using , then my postal target, I'm ready to pop the top on a can of spinach.
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Popeye notwithstanding, I have never felt a strength surge from eating spinach, canned or fresh.
Color me disappointed. :Doh!
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Good point John
I noticed this , well last year now, when I shot my deer with the TC .54 I had a great amount of difficulty holding the gun on point and waiting for the deer to present itself.
I like to come up on aim and hold like a Statue just to minimize any unnecessary movement.
In years past I could do that with the hawken no problem but this past season I found it to be quite hard and longed for a pair of shooting sticks. This is a 8- 9+ lb gun .
My left arm , being right handed just could not hold that muzzle up for any long period of time .
I may have to switch the kibler next with the swamped longer barrel, it's much easy to hold but I'm sure shooting sticks will become a constant companion.
Kevin
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Gun weight has also become an issue for me. Strutting around with an 11lb Bess or Charlie gets old real quick.
The Kibler Fowlers are a total joy, with the 16ga @ 6lbs 6ozs! Even with its 44" bbl offhand for me is reasonably doable. I can now hit the broad side of a barn where with those other guns I was missing ... all the time! :luff:
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I have a bench rifle that weighs 22 pounds.
Many years ago (like decades) I could shoot it offhand and actually hit a target with it.
Silly, I know. They call it a bench rifle for a reason. Nobody with a brain functioning at more than 10% would try to shoot it offhand.
Anyway, time passes as it usually does.
Today, I would have difficulty even raising it to a shooting posture, let alone being able to actually aim the darn thing.
Gee, I miss those good old days.
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Kevin, here is what I use instead of shooting sticks. As you can see, there are two heights that can be used. Along with some rope for dragging if needed. I've used this one for many years. Works for a walking stick also, but should be a longer than mine is. Just food for thought. I've seen pictures of long hunters and Mountain men using their hand and ram rod, so certainly doesn't have to be elaborate. [ Invalid Attachment ]
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So Tom, not having a point of reference there, how tall is it?
Looking at it, it appears about right for a sitting position for the top notch and a reclining position for the bottom notch.
How far off am I?
And boy, didn't we get on a rabbit trail concerning the weight of round balls?
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https://share.google/cDU30BH5aCKmjv6JF
I use the primos trigger stick.
I really like them.
Kevin
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A set of height and angle adjustable cross sticks is easy to make out of box store 1x2 red oak. I used this set for over a decade.
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You're close John. I generally use the upper one while kneeling. The other one while sitting. But both could be raised a bit. And the over all height should be about 8-10" higher for use as a walking stick. With Rob's you could take care of all those necessary changes. I'm going to check out Kevin's link to look at that.
And you're right about the rabbit trail. I wish we could start a few more of them.
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I've noticed that with the Hodgepodge Rifle, 32" barrel & half stock, I wave the muzzle a lot more than the Shenandoah rifle, 34" barrel and full stock. Both weigh a tad over 7 pounds. The difference showed in my shooting last year with much smaller groups for the Shenandoah. I'll do more field work to determine which works better for me.
~Kees~
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John I apologize for not giving you the rest of the dimensions on my stick. The top fork is at 4'. The lower one is at 37".
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Thanks Tom, from looking at the photo, I could not really tell.