Post by: Minnesota Mike on June 20, 2007, 02:46:43 PM
Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
r/
MM
Post by: AxelP on June 20, 2007, 04:39:08 PM
Brent is a first-rate gentleman, and builds great looking, and uniquely correct, rifles and smoothbores.
Axe
Post by: Two Steps on June 20, 2007, 04:39:14 PM
Al
Post by: RichW on June 20, 2007, 05:53:31 PM
This is the link to the American memory Collections at Library of Congress, including the Collections of the Minnesota Historical Society and the Collections of the State Historical Society of Wisconsin. There are also a number of other books at this site.
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/umhtml/lhbu ... les01.html (http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/umhtml/lhbumbibTitles01.html)
William Keating's account of the Long Expedition should be interesting to you. Also Schoolcraft.
For the other perspective on the fur trade you can't beat John Tanner:
http://books.google.com/books?id=mQ8AAA ... PA4-IA1,M1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=mQ8AAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA4-IA1&dq=john+tanner#PPA4-IA1,M1)
For William Aitkin at Sandy Lake, see
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZCdkrd ... +Aitkin%22 (http://books.google.com/books?id=ZCdkrd-GwdwC&pg=PA483&dq=%22William+Aitkin%22)
There's a pretty neat article on the artifacts found a the lake:
http://content.wisconsinhistory.org/cdm ... 9378&REC=4 (http://content.wisconsinhistory.org/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/wmh&CISOPTR=29428&CISOSHOW=29378&REC=4)
Post by: Sir Michael on June 20, 2007, 07:13:42 PM
Post by: Riley/MN on June 20, 2007, 08:38:02 PM
Now, how's about tellin just a bit about yerself. A virginian with a moniker from Minnesota has ta have a story ta go with it...
Post by: Minnesota Mike on June 21, 2007, 10:41:39 AM
Had muzzleloader back in college for deer hunting (still use it) - a few years ago got my brother and I got Dad a smokepole for extra 2-weeks deer hunting here in VA. Looking for a place to practice led us to the James River Black Powder Club - great bunch of guys, so we joined. Then came the rest of the primitive kit - clothes, gear, tent, camp set, etc. - Also meant putting a persona together that ties everything all together.
Since we roamed, canoed and hunted all over northern MN (scout troop canoed and camped a lot!), we decided to stick with territory we knew. But because Dad doesn't want to play with flintlocks (yet) we needed to stick to percussion weapons - which weren't really commercially viable until late 1820s. So we targeted fur traders/hunters as part of the American Fur Company which had an outpost at Sandy Lake on the Mississippi as part of the Savannah Portage. It's a very interesting time period with a lot going on - although most hostilities have settled to a low simmer by 1830, the fur companies aren't openly shooting at each other and the Dakota and Ojibway are relative un-hostile (never at peace), Fort Snelling is up and running, and steamboats are coming up river - civilization is getting closer, but ain't there yet.
I've done a lot of research to date. Have several sources that talk about the fur trade and many of the personalities - but am looking for specifics to help try to reconstruct the outpost itself and what daily life would have been. Some good info on earlier posts, but that puts things back into the flinter period.
Most easily accessible literature seems to jump from the voyaguers to the mountain men, skipping decades and hundreds of miles. So any help nailing down that outpost would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
r/
MM
Post by: RichW on June 21, 2007, 11:00:28 AM
The article below that is about artifacts found on the site of the blacksmith's shop.
I agree, the AFCo is really hard to track down! Now if ya wanted NWCo or HBC, you would have a huge library to work with.
Quote from: "RichW"
For William Aitkin at Sandy Lake, see
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZCdkrd ... +Aitkin%22 (http://books.google.com/books?id=ZCdkrd-GwdwC&pg=PA483&dq=%22William+Aitkin%22)
There's a pretty neat article on the artifacts found at the lake:
http://content.wisconsinhistory.org/cdm ... 9378&REC=4 (http://content.wisconsinhistory.org/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/wmh&CISOPTR=29428&CISOSHOW=29378&REC=4)
Post by: Minnesota Mike on June 21, 2007, 11:14:53 AM
Have copy of LT Allen's report on his trip with Schoolcraft in 1832. Aitkin was involved with the Sandy Lake post well before 1830 - really wish he'd written journal or something like many others did, would make this a lot easier.
Also have copy of Philander Prescot's Rem. Good description of the area and general life - but Prescot was opposition trader (Columbia) and when he visited Aitkin, that was before the post was moved in 1820s.
LT Pike had good description of general area as well in his reports - but that was in 1805 when the old post was still a NWC post.
r/
MM
Post by: RichW on June 21, 2007, 11:24:51 AM
Quote from: "Minnesota Mike"
really wish he'd written journal or something like many others did, would make this a lot easier.
Yeah, that's probably part of why NWCo and XY are so well studied: they required journals!
I haven't seen Prescot. Got a ref?
Post by: Minnesota Mike on June 21, 2007, 11:50:22 AM
Very well written and fairly frank. Here's a good description of the book:
http://clarke.cmich.edu/detroit/prescott1819.htm (http://clarke.cmich.edu/detroit/prescott1819.htm)
r/
MM
Post by: RichW on June 21, 2007, 12:07:34 PM
I have only see his "narratives" in here:
Schoolcraft, Henry Rowe, 1793-1864, Historical and Statistical Information Respecting the History, Condition and Prospects of the Indian Tribes of the United States, vol. 3. Philadelphia, PA: Lippincott, Grambo and Co., 1857.
Not the same thing, I guess!
Post by: Minnesota Mike on June 21, 2007, 03:08:08 PM
Especially liked the bit where he and his brother would shoot candles of each other shoulders with pistols.
Have been through the various books by Schoolcraft - neat stuff. One of these days intend to add to collection, but just not now.
Have this by Schoolcraft: NARRATIVE OF AN EXPEDITION THROUGH THE UPPER MISSISSIPPI TO ITASCA LAKE, THE ACTUAL SOURCE OF THIS RIVER; EMBRACING AN EXPLORATORY TRIP THROUGH THE ST. CROIX AND BURNTWOOD (OR BROULE) RIVERS; IN 1832 UNDER THE DIRECTION OF HENRY R. SCHOOLCRAFT.
By another who went on the trip: SCHOOLCRAFT'S EXPLORING TOUR OF 1832. BY REV. W. T. BOUTWELL.
And LT Allen's report: SCHOOLCRAFT AND ALLEN & EXPEDITION TO NORTHWEST INDIANS. LETTER FROM THE SECRETARY OF WAR, TRANSMITTING. A Map and Report of Lieut. Allen and H. B. Schoolcraft's visit to the Northwest Indians in 1832. APRIL 12, 1834. Read, and laid upon the table. WAR DEPARTMENT, April 11, 1834.
Interesting to compare this with LT Allen's report of the same trip and Allen's changing opinion of Schoolcraft during the 1832 journey.
I just wish that they had been more descriptive of the Sandy Lake outpost considering that they spent time there. Oh well . . .
r/
MM
Post by: RichW on June 21, 2007, 03:36:15 PM
I had to build a new bookshelf, and it's already full!
Post by: Minnesota Mike on June 21, 2007, 03:49:28 PM
Quote from: "RichW"
Sounds like you have done more than just scratching the surface. I don't have any of Schoolcraft's books
Yup . . . but still have not hit pay dirt . . . yet.
r/
MM
Post by: RichW on June 21, 2007, 04:03:03 PM
Most of the American Fur Company papers haven't been published. I'm not even sure where they all are, but Minnesota Historical Society has a bunch. Road trip!
Post by: Minnesota Mike on June 21, 2007, 04:08:23 PM
Quote from: "RichW"
Well, you might need to bring in a back hoe
Yup - am planning such next year. I'm a member of the MHS, so intend to dive deep. But need to know what to look for - hence my pulsing to see if anyone knows what I should be looking for vice just throwing the net wide and hoping for the best.
Want to time the research foray with an event back 'home' so that I can fire off the smokepole if possible or hit one of the re-enactor posts when they are at full throttle. So schedule is still in flux.
r/
MM
Post by: Riley/MN on July 02, 2007, 02:07:13 PM
Up at the Mille Lacs rondy, they usually have Larry Luukkenon come in and do a talk on trade guns, etc.
Well Larry has just published a book entitled Between The Waters: Tracing the Northwest Trail from Lake superior to the Mississippi
He picked them up from the publisher last week and was at the History fest selling them on Saturday. I don't know when I will get a chance to read it-but it is right in the time and place you guys are talking about.
Post by: RichW on July 02, 2007, 02:32:29 PM
(http://shop.mnhs.org/web_assets/0873514122f.jpg)
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?a ... 689idiv186 (http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/lhbum:@field(DOCID+@lit(lhbum7689idiv186)))
Paste the whole thing in.
Post by: Riley/MN on July 02, 2007, 03:01:04 PM
I think I better finish the resumes first, no?
Post by: RichW on July 02, 2007, 03:12:39 PM
Quote from: "Riley/MN"
Thanks for the link. Hmm, more to read-just when I was getting busy sending out resumes.
I think I better finish the resumes first, no?
Um, yeah. In the current vernacular, gettin' layed-off sucks.
Post by: Riley/MN on July 02, 2007, 03:28:53 PM
Post by: RichW on July 02, 2007, 04:51:17 PM
These are some of my favorites:
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/umhtml/ (http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/umhtml/)
Collections of the Minnesota Historical Society. Volume 5.
Collections of the State Historical Society of Wisconsin. Volume 19.
?Collections of the State Historical Society of Wisconsin. Volume 20.
Personal memoirs of a residence of thirty years with the Indian tribes on the American frontiers: with brief notices of passing events, facts, and opinions, A.D. 1812 to A.D. 1842.
Post by: Minnesota Mike on July 02, 2007, 05:08:08 PM
Quote from: "Riley/MN"
I just picked up a book-hot off the presses!
Up at the Mille Lacs rondy, they usually have Larry Luukkenon come in and do a talk on trade guns, etc.
Well Larry has just published a book entitled Between The Waters: Tracing the Northwest Trail from Lake superior to the Mississippi
He picked them up from the publisher last week and was at the History fest selling them on Saturday. I don't know when I will get a chance to read it-but it is right in the time and place you guys are talking about.
Intend to order one now that they are available.
r/
MM
Post by: Minnesota Mike on July 31, 2007, 02:13:53 PM
Looks great - lots of good info from many sources compiled into one place. Have not had chance to fully read it yet, but what I've read so far is pretty good. The old maps he has included are clear and easy to read. Wish that the photos he has taken of the actual places were in color, but everything so far looks to be in black and white.
Will comment more after I finish devouring it.
What did you think of the book?
r/
MM
Post by: Riley/MN on July 31, 2007, 06:18:01 PM
What I have read so far-I like. Of course when I read it I can hear Larry's voice explaining about these areas, which is kinda neat.
Post by: Minnesota Mike on August 01, 2007, 12:00:32 PM
r/
MM
Post by: RichW on October 03, 2007, 09:37:14 AM
2 PM's sent. 1833 Letters from a Minnesota fur trader. Hopefully you will find them useful.
HISTORICAL COLLECTIONS AND RESEARCHES MADE BY THE
MICHIGAN PIONEER AND HISTORICAL SOCIETY V. 37
LANSING: WYNKOOP, HALLENBECK, CRAWFORD CO. 1909, 1910
LETTERS ON THE FUR TRADE 1833 BY WILLIAM JOHNSTON
Post by: Minnesota Mike on October 03, 2007, 10:59:35 AM
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MM
Post by: Riley/MN on October 03, 2007, 11:34:01 AM
(BTW, in the still-current vernacular, being layed off for 5 months REALLY sucks)
Mike, didja finish Larry's book? I did and lent my copy out to the afore mentioned Mr. Gurtek... but it shore hits the area you are interested in. What do you think???
You make shore you let someone know when you are makin that trip this way. Due to my lack of employment, my trip down there isn't going to happen. (If you see anyone runnin around in USS Inchon hats next weekend, you tell 'em ET3 Snyder said hi.)
Post by: RichW on October 03, 2007, 12:38:16 PM
William Johnston's fur trade letters, 1833,
AND
Jean Baptiste Perrault's reminiscences... one of the best on the fur trade!
So Riley, nothing stopping you from going to NAVC this year, eh?
Post by: Minnesota Mike on November 02, 2007, 04:34:52 PM
Quote from: "Riley/MN"
Mike, didja finish Larry's book? I did and lent my copy out to the afore mentioned Mr. Gurtek... but it shore hits the area you are interested in. What do you think???
Super book - fills in some of the geography questions I had. Have been back and forth with Larry a couple of times and he completely empathizes with me on the lack of info about the AFC post at Sandy Lake.
Very well written and some great photos. Definately worth the read and recommended for anyone wanted a medium brush stroke picture of fur trade up in the northern area of Minnesota.
r/
MM
Post by: Pichou on November 02, 2007, 07:30:50 PM
Personally I think Astor was a %^&* AFC? No cameraderie like the Canadians. ;)
Post by: Minnesota Mike on November 05, 2007, 02:09:55 PM
Have some anecdotal descriptions of the Sandy Lake post from various visitors, but no detailed lay out.
r/
MM
Post by: Pichou on November 05, 2007, 02:26:05 PM
Post by: Minnesota Mike on November 05, 2007, 02:46:22 PM
I think that the drawing was based on description provided by Zeb Pike during his 1805 visit, but would need to go back and confirm that with one of the references.
r/
MM
Post by: Riley/MN on November 06, 2007, 12:57:29 PM
Quote from: "RichW"
So Riley, nothing stopping you from going to NAVC this year, eh?
Wifey said I could go, but I'd havta rely on my good looks ta get me in.
Uhh, I stayed home.
Post by: Minnesota Mike on November 06, 2007, 03:35:45 PM
Quote from: "Riley/MN"
Wifey said I could go, but I'd havta rely on my good looks ta get me in.
Uhh, I stayed home.
:shock: :shock:
That's what hoods and beards are for . . .
r/
MM
Post by: RichW on November 06, 2007, 04:45:44 PM
Quote from: "Riley/MN"
Wifey said I could go... Uhh, I stayed home.
Uh huh. Same here. Maybe next year...
Post by: Pichou on November 06, 2007, 04:48:54 PM
Quote from: "RichW"
Quote from: "Riley/MN"Wifey said I could go... Uhh, I stayed home.
Uh huh. Same here. Maybe next year...
Old people! Man, just hop in the car and go! :oops:
Maybe next year...
Post by: Minnesota Mike on November 06, 2007, 05:21:51 PM
r/
MM
Post by: Minnesota Mike on June 02, 2008, 11:02:10 AM
Got it from Fort Union - it's a burgee in three collor sections: Blue, white and red with AMFCo in black at an angle in the white section.
Me is happy guy.
r/
MM
Post by: Sir Michael on June 02, 2008, 08:44:55 PM
Can you be a bit more explicit? It is triangular, swallow tail, or truncated? Are the colors in horizontal or vertical stripes or is there some other division?
Pictures?????
Post by: Trois Castors on June 02, 2008, 09:28:10 PM
Quote from: "Sir Michael"
Pictures?????Ya,What he said!
Regards,
Post by: RichW on June 03, 2008, 08:42:38 AM
http://www.nps.gov/archive/fous/ThemeItems.html (http://www.nps.gov/archive/fous/ThemeItems.html)
Check out their trade goods too.
The AMFCo logo is a takeoff of the AMKCo logo of the XY/Alexander MacKenzie and Co. logo.
Post by: Minnesota Mike on June 03, 2008, 09:28:37 AM
Will take photo of the flag flying above camp in 2-weeks. We've got a mini-vous (Family Frolic) Jun 14-15, so will be able to get shot of flag in context waving proudly above the tent.
r/
MM
Post by: Sir Michael on June 03, 2008, 07:54:48 PM
Post by: Minnesota Mike on June 26, 2008, 02:33:22 PM
http://www.traditionalmuzzleloadingasso ... ic_id=3109 (http://www.traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.org/forum/phpbb2/album_showpage.php?pic_id=3109)
After rain that night, the colors also seem to have blended in a little bit . . . will work at fixing that . . .
r/
MM