Traditional Muzzleloading Association

The Center of Camp => People of the Times => Topic started by: Doug Miller on June 26, 2008, 06:02:37 PM

Title: flaps on shooting bags
Post by: Doug Miller on June 26, 2008, 06:02:37 PM
Hello All,
         I've decided to make a brain tanned, heavily Native influenced, shooting bag. Was talking to a gentleman this weekend at a local pow wow and was informed that Natives had no flaps on their bags until roughly 1800. Just got the most recent Muzzleloader magazine and right on the front cover stands a Native with a nice small flap on his bag. Anyone have any thoughts or opinions on this highly controversial issue? ;)
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Post by: Captchee on June 26, 2008, 07:38:59 PM
Well  here is my opinion.
 A native bag should have no flap .
 That being said  we are not talking about a flap like on  white persons  shoot bag . IE a flap that covers the opening .
 Now I have seen some like on the painting your speaking of that appears to have a flap . but this flap actually covers nothing . IE it flops outward , not  over . in later  bags this flap  covers  over only one of two opening .

 The other thing to remember is artists like Griffing  who do wonderful work and most often do some research to their work , are also artists and the paint what they see in their mind .
Many also use re-enactors as models  and paint what they wear  . As such you never know just how much research went into their article .
 That all being said , if it were me ,  pre 1800 no flap . post 1800  a flap
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Post by: Doug Miller on June 26, 2008, 09:00:28 PM
Thanks for the reply Captchee. I like the idea of an outward flap. room for a little more decoration.
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Post by: Loyalist Dave on July 01, 2008, 11:42:30 AM
As the man said, sometimes they use reenactors, and paint what they wear, and because of safety rules, some NA reenactors have flaps that cover the opening to their bags when carrying cartridges for battle reenactments or shooting demos.  I like putting a leather liner with a flap inside my NA open top bag, to meet those regs when using such a bag.

LD
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Post by: mike rumping on July 01, 2008, 06:37:31 PM
use a flap, it'll keep a spark out of the bag, specially if you might carry paper cartridges or spill any powder in the bag.
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Post by: Doug Miller on July 01, 2008, 08:24:52 PM
How about this. A small flap sewn on the bag closest to your  body, basically hidden. if an event arrives with a requirement for a flap,just flip it over the opening and let it hang over the decorated outer flap. I can understand the safety cocerns regarding carrying cartridges but the bag will be made for my smoothbore which I prime from the horn. No powder in the bag.
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Post by: Loyalist Dave on July 02, 2008, 08:10:52 AM
The places that require the leather and the flap do not require said flap to be on the outside of the bag.  So.., when I use my wool, open top bag and carry cartridges..., I place a cheap, suede pouch with a flap inside my cloth bag to hold the cartridges...no worries.  No need to modify or deviate from the traditional bag.   FYI some sites do not allow horns with powder on the field during a battle reenactment.

LD
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Post by: Captchee on July 02, 2008, 09:07:56 AM
not sure guys that  he is looking for a bag to be used in re-enactments .
  i could be wrong but im thinking he is talking about more of a correct bag  for the time period ..
 Of which  what time period are you looking at ?
 For  eastern  shooting bag .  It should be small  about 6x8 Im thinking  .

 Later period  plains bags   that could have been used  are longer and either draw at the top like a tobacco bag or fold over .
 I have some photos of a few early great lakes bags “not shoot bags specific “ as well as a number of later 3 and 4 tab bags  as well as more then a few plains bags
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Post by: Doug Miller on July 02, 2008, 07:52:38 PM
That is right Captchee, not really looking for a reenactment bag but thought I might be ready if the occasion arises. I have been asked to a few but really isn't my cup of tea even though I feel kind of obligated to give something back to the events.
   My time period is 1750's-60's. With Ohio Natives that came down through " The Valley" raiding. Could possibly have a touch of French influence thrown in. This is all in the planning stages but would like it to have a personal touch to it. Sorry I wasn't more specific in the original post. I do like the idea of just carrying the cartridges in a covered bag inside. Thanks everyone for the input.
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Post by: attheedgeoftheworld on April 17, 2009, 03:59:12 AM
both of my bags have open top. and the one I have for sale is open top as well. As others have stated there is no support for a bag with flap in native hands.
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Post by: Shawnee Mike on February 07, 2010, 04:56:17 PM
Osayo,
I am increasingly comming to the opinion that the square open top shoulder bags that alot of us use, were in the period NOT shot bags.
  There are too many references and drawings of Natives with these bags and no horn and no weapon.
  Likewise, there are drawings of armed natives with no bag or using a slit pouch.
  I believe natives did not carry ball and accessories like the whites did. A slit pouch would be just the right size for a few balls and wads or shot. There are drawings of such with the slit pouch hung over the horn.
  I am thinking the decorated square bags that are seen are more like "possables" bags to be used as pockets for all those little things that one would commonly carry.
  I will pour powder in my palm and load from there for reenactments, But I am told there are some places that donot allow that.
  If i were to have to use paper cartridges, i would want a pouch i could get into easy and it would definetly have a flap to protect from sparks, But i would also not consider the practice period correct.
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Post by: mario on February 07, 2010, 07:38:24 PM
Quote from: "Shawnee Mike"
Osayo,
I am increasingly comming to the opinion that the square open top shoulder bags that alot of us use, were in the period NOT shot bags.
  There are too many references and drawings of Natives with these bags and no horn and no weapon.
  Likewise, there are drawings of armed natives with no bag or using a slit pouch.
  I believe natives did not carry ball and accessories like the whites did. A slit pouch would be just the right size for a few balls and wads or shot. There are drawings of such with the slit pouch hung over the horn.
  I am thinking the decorated square bags that are seen are more like "possables" bags to be used as pockets for all those little things that one would commonly carry.

For the 18th century, yup. Documented in writing and images of the period.

(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e201/nytrekker/originals/timelinecolor.jpg)





Quote from: "Shawnee Mike"
 I will pour powder in my palm and load from there for reenactments, But I am told there are some places that donot allow that.
 

The folks out here would crap a canary if they saw that.




Here's a later (ca. 1807, IIRC) image of Joseph Brant with a Great Lakes-type bag:

(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e201/nytrekker/originals/Brant1790-1.jpg)



Mario
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Post by: Shawnee Mike on March 14, 2010, 01:03:41 PM
"The folks out here would crap a canary if they saw that. "

    Thats funny Mario  LOL  Thanks,
Yes some places dont like that practice, But those would also be the ones that dont want powder in horns and want us to use cartridges... Right?  It would be a modifacation to the practice for sure.

   I like that Image of Joseph Brant.  Did you notice it looks like his bag is hanging from the horn strap.  Very interesting.
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Post by: Trois Castors on March 14, 2010, 02:12:38 PM
Quote from: "mario"
The folks out here would crap a canary if they saw that.
:Canada Up here too.....for sure!
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Post by: tg on March 15, 2010, 03:11:50 PM
I tried a small split pouch/wallet type bag held over the sash or horn and it worked well  for day hunts, you may want to tinker with some different styles made from old blue jean material or other junk cloth to find what you like best.
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Post by: shootrj2003 on November 15, 2010, 09:06:52 AM
again, as was the same with the idea that indians had mostly smoothbores-I ndians aqquired much equiptment as ''booty'' and it was a mark of honor to have and use these ''trophies''especially if stolen or captured from a famous man,These indians had been raiding so it was just as good an idea that they or other indians of that time period would have bags with flapsor the more native style bags.JMHO