Post by: dennyhawk on November 06, 2008, 01:26:08 PM
Personally, I don't believe in it! I would think that the "seasoning" would eventually fill the rifling, and mess up your accuracy!
Right now I am doing my best to get this crud out of an old New Englander that I own. I bought the rifle when I first started muzzle loading, and at the time bought into the seasoning theory.
Any Ideas on how to get it out of there???
Thanks
Post by: BEAVERMAN on November 06, 2008, 01:56:13 PM
Post by: dennyhawk on November 06, 2008, 02:04:01 PM
Post by: Uncle Russ on November 06, 2008, 02:09:29 PM
I actually think that those of us who bought into the seasoning theory were actually removing little minor manufacturing imperfections from the barrel through repeated shootings and cleanings....I don't think, even for a minute, that we season a barrel in much the same way we season an iron skillet.
Now for the meat of your problem...removing "gunk" from a rifle barrel can certainly be a chore, and not an easy one.
I use a brass brush and Kroil, from Kano. Then I use Hoppe's, and lots of it. I have found, over the years, that repeated, good, indepth, cleanings as I just mentioned, will, in all probability, clean up a barrel that seems at first to be a total waste.
You don't necessarily have to clean it until it squeaks the first, or even second time. But if you will agressively attack that barrel each time you shoot it, you will eventually see a big difference.
And, of course, you can't forget the grease, elbow grease, and don't use it sparingly.
Also, don't forget, you're dealing with a piece of steel, and steel can sometimes be as tough as.....well, as tough as steel.
I'm sure others have methods that work quite well too, and I'm equally sure you're going to get a few more opinions.
Either way, good luck on getting the barrel clean.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: BEAVERMAN on November 06, 2008, 02:19:47 PM
Quote from: "dennyhawk"
That won't mess up the bore like bleach would does it?
Denny, it is caustic, but.... no where near as caustic as bleach, thats why the 15 min time limit and flush well with lots of hot water, Ive been doing this for years on my traditions and T/C's and have had no problems with pitting of the steel, if you seasoned it with bore butter or some other grease, I would think that lots and lots of boiling water dumped through the tube would also help melt that goo out of it!
Post by: dennyhawk on November 06, 2008, 02:20:08 PM
Post by: nessy357 on November 06, 2008, 03:45:06 PM
I also clean my rifle like the Beav does, I like to wrap a cleaning patch around a wire brush, works "slicker than deer guts on a doorknob"
Cheers Bob.
Post by: Voyageur on November 06, 2008, 03:58:52 PM
Post by: Frank on November 07, 2008, 01:47:57 AM
Post by: Three Hawks on November 07, 2008, 07:28:47 AM
What I've learned is that everyone's method works. I like mine as it works for me.
I arrived at my method because my rifle, a T-C Hawken had a nasty little idiosyncrasy. After five or six shots it would develop a tight place in the bore eight inches or so down from the muzzle. Nothing short of a complete clean would allow a patched ball to pass without a mallet to the ramrod. I was hunting one year with a good friend who is a damn good auto mechanic who had a Traditions rifle that patterned about 15" at 50 yds and we were taking about these rifles around the fire after supper.
He rustled around in the junk locker in his pickup and found a tube of fine grade valve grinding compound. As both of us had rifle barrels that couldn't be damaged, we both made up very tight wet patches, loaded 'em with valve grinding compound and made complete passes the full length of both bores with the gritty patches until the resistance felt uniform the full length of the bores.
I did two patch set-ups, Lee did four, the first three set-ups, the rifling cut his patch. We came to the conclusion it was burrs on the rifling. The next morning we each fired test shots to see what happened and satisfy ourselves we had cleared up our problems. My rifle has never had that tight spot since, his began to shoot into a 4" circle at 50 yards. Not bench rest accuracy, but it improved that pot iron from trade goods to a good useable rifle. Both of us use different cleaning methods, and both of our rifles still shoot well.
Do I recommend using valve grinding compound in your rifle bore? Lord no, unless it is so bad the bore cannot be damaged. I got a bad problem solved, Lee got an unusable cheap rifle shooting well. All for the price of an hour of messing with muzzleloaders.
Anyway, shortly after that I read the British Army's official method of cleaning muzzleloading rifles and muskets that used only wetted patches until the patches came out clean, then drying the bore until the patches came out dry, then wiping the bore with sperm oil, goose grease or bear grease, as available. As sperm oil and goose grease are right out and bear grease is difficult for me to come by, I wipe my muzzleloading bores with 1000 Wonder Lube. Because I have a lot of it and like the smell. I've also used automatic transmission fluid as it's synthetic sperm oil. It works well, too.
Your mileage, as always, may vary.
Gabby ol'
Three Hawks
Post by: Ohio Joe on November 07, 2008, 07:52:57 AM
They also claimed that if you used a petroleum based cleaner it would break down the seasoning that the Bore Butter supposedly introduced.
Though I like and use the bore butter as a patch lube, I agree with Russ on the seasoning question, and I never wait to clean my rifles after I'm finished shooting.
Once the bore is clean and dry I oil it with Sheath Oil (which has a small petroleum base) and I have never had a problem with any of my rifle bores.
I don't believe the Bore Butter ever "seasoned" any of my rifle bore's,,, but I do believe that Thompson Center more then likely helped to put many a rifle bore's on the road to ruin with their claim of using the Bore Butter and their suggested poor cleaning practices of waiting to clean your rifle's bore. I expect some folks took TC at their word with the BB product and seldom cleaned their bore's and helped in the possibility of ruining these bore's.
I'd suggest to keep scrubbing your bore until it is clean an dry - then give it a coat of oil. As I said, I like the Sheath Oil.
Post by: Three Hawks on November 07, 2008, 10:31:41 AM
Quote from: "Ohio Joe"
Thompson Center claimed that their Bore Butter "seasoned" the bore when used and it was not necessary to clean between shots or immediately after shooting.
They also claimed that if you used a petroleum based cleaner it would break down the seasoning that the Bore Butter supposedly introduced.
Though I like and use the bore butter as a patch lube, I agree with Russ on the seasoning question, and I never wait to clean my rifles after I'm finished shooting.
Once the bore is clean and dry I oil it with Sheath Oil (which has a small petroleum base) and I have never had a problem with any of my rifle bores.
I don't believe the Bore Butter ever "seasoned" any of my rifle bore's,,, but I do believe that Thompson Center more then likely helped to put many a rifle bore's on the road to ruin with their claim of using the Bore Butter and their suggested poor cleaning practices of waiting to clean your rifle's bore. I expect some folks took TC at their word with the BB product and seldom cleaned their bore's and helped in the possibility of ruining these bore's.
I'd suggest to keep scrubbing your bore until it is clean an dry - then give it a coat of oil. As I said, I like the Sheath Oil.
I had a bad family incident a few years back resulting in leaving my T-C Hawken uncleaned for over six months. I had just shot seventy rounds at a Rondy with only the Wonder Lube 1000 on my patches. The rifle stood dirty in the rack six months or more before I could get to it. It cleaned easily and there was no damage. The time was from late September until mid April or thereabouts. I dunno about other's experience, but they made a believer out of me so far as WL1000 goes. Winter in Western Washington is not the dry season, either.
Your mileage, as always, may vary.
Three Hawks
Post by: dennyhawk on November 07, 2008, 02:58:01 PM
If a feller don't want to burn this stuff in his rifle or otherwise lubricate with it, what are the other alternatives? In other words, what else should I be using for patch lube???
Or is it o.k to go ahead and use it so long as I give my rifles a good scrubbing after shooting?
Post by: oomcurt on November 07, 2008, 04:12:12 PM
Just my two cents on all this..... I think most everyone has thier own "favorite" patch lube. So I doubt if one could ever get everyone to agree on just one. That said....I use Bore Butter/Wonderlube/ and I think there is another name for it as well....but...I use it in the winter. The reason being...it doesn't get gummy or like glue...meaning it doesn't thicken up. In the summer I use Hoppe's #9 Plus. When it gets hot outside Bore Butter is like...well...butter left out in the sun. Now as for using Bore Butter as a lube...from what I have heard...not a good idea, it appears to not really coat well. Maybe if one lived in a area where the humidity was very low it would be alright..I donno for sure. Regarding that "build up" one hears about after using bore butter for a long time...I never experienced that. However...every so often I do use a wire brush to scrub the barrel with. Along with hot water. Hope this helps somewhat.
All the Best,
Curt
Post by: Uncle Russ on November 07, 2008, 05:02:29 PM
And, the majority of them are very happy with the results.
I have always been told that if there is a problem with using Bore Butter as a "final barrel lube", it is the fact that Bore Butter / Wonder Lube 1000 / or whatever, will actually hold moisture, if the bore is not perfectly dry after the initial cleaning.
If any moisture is left, anywhere in the barrel, Bore Butter will actually cover it up without removing it.....when allow to sit for any length of time, rust will form where the moisture was "under" the Bore Butter.
Trying to completely remove the moisture is the reason many folks will clean, or at least throughly wipe their rifle a second time, a day or two after it was fired and cleaned the first time.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Two Steps on November 07, 2008, 05:13:06 PM
Quote
I have always been told that if there is a problem with using Bore Butter as a "final barrel lube", it is the fact that Bore Butter / Wonder Lube 1000 / or whatever, will actually hold moisture, if the bore is not perfectly dry after the initial cleaning.
Russ, this is the same thing that I have heard/learned. If your final lube is going to be BB...the barrel must be absolutely dry .
Most of the time I will run one or two alcohol patches down the bbl to chase the dampness. My final lube is with Ballistol, which will help chase dampness and will remain after any dampness evaporates.
Works for me...now if I could just train my barrels to push round balls towards the X
Al
Post by: Mitch on November 07, 2008, 05:34:16 PM
Post by: Uncle Russ on November 07, 2008, 05:34:31 PM
Ballistol has, IMHO, become the "final lube" of choice with just about every shooter I know....It also works great as a patch lube, and will even remove spar varnish from the seat on your Bass Boat......but we won't go there.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: BEAVERMAN on November 07, 2008, 06:46:57 PM
Post by: Mule Brain on November 09, 2008, 09:14:34 PM
I use water, and a dab of dish soap to clean my bores. After the barrel is clean, out comes the olive oil. That is all I use on all my guns!
I will be trying olive oil as a patch lube soon to see how that works.
Post by: Minnesota Mike on November 10, 2008, 12:00:40 PM
I've heard that after initally getting your barrel and using brush or stell wool to get rid of any nicks or burrs inside, you don't ever want to use a wire brush down the barrel ever again. You WANT to build up that pantina in the corners of the rifling to help make a tighter seal - which is why it takes a few score of shots until your smokepole settles out.
Wonder if maybe a survey on who (and why) out there brushes out their barrels routinely and who (and why) does not.
r/
MM
Post by: dennyhawk on November 12, 2008, 12:17:44 PM
Post by: oomcurt on November 12, 2008, 01:03:32 PM
As for Minnesota Mike's question on wire brushing routinely...nope..I do not do that. Maybe I might do that once a year perhaps. Personally, I think things like that can be overdone. I don't think it would necessarily harm the barrel....but well...I look at it as "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" type thing.
I guess it all boils down to one's druthers. Do I clean my guns the minute I am done shooting? Nope. I do clean them, the ones I used that day, before I go to bed though.
Just my two cents...
Post by: Mitch on November 12, 2008, 01:51:52 PM
Post by: vermontfreedom on November 12, 2008, 09:21:22 PM
The idea after then was that the pores in the metal (yes, stainless steel has microscopic pores) need to be filled with fouling to achieve optimum accuracy. You'll know that benchrest competition shooters almost always fire 2 "fouling shots" before a shoot. They also often say cleaning down to "bare metal" sets you back to a brand-new barrel. Many BR shooters, and even our own sniper squadrons will do a bare-minimum clean like run a bore snake down a few times then call it good.
Of course, it might be different with BP smokepoles and not smokeless.
On a 20+ year old Lyman Trade Rifle I learned on, I'd clean the bore with HOT soapy water, dry completely, then treat with bore butter or oxyoke. That old bore would drive tacks at 50 yards.
I followed the same regimen with a .54-cal Rice barrel, until every time I wiped my bore, whether 5 hours, 5 days or 5 months after the last time I shot I'd get brown on my patches.
Certainly, that might be the vegetable base in the bore butter oxidizing, but I was always worried about rust.
Now, I just use warm water, no soap, clean till patches are mostly (say, 98%) clean, dry completely, then treat with Sheath, like Ohio JOe says, or another similar Beechwood Casey product called "Barricade".
About 3 days after the clean I'll run another Barricade patch, then about once a month year-round if I haven't shot.
Post by: tg on November 13, 2008, 08:03:40 PM
Post by: Minnesota Mike on November 14, 2008, 11:42:34 AM
So once you have barrel clean and clear, then don't go back and use wire brush ever again. Swab out and flush out to remove fouling and powder residue, but no wire brushing. Treat and coat with anti-rust product of choice. Have heard everything from bore butter to transmission fluid.
r/
MM
Post by: dennyhawk on November 14, 2008, 01:18:42 PM
Post by: Gambia on November 14, 2008, 01:21:44 PM
Post by: Uncle Russ on November 14, 2008, 02:08:10 PM
Quote from: "dennyhawk"
But won't the rifling eventually fill up with this stuff??
This debate on whether to "clean it to the bone, or not" is not a new discussion by any means. It has been going on as long as I can remember.
FWIW; I am by no mean an expert on all this, albeit I am a Certified Gunsmith and a graduate of CST.
However, my own personal experience over the years, with the help of a good bore light, and sometimes even a good bore scope, has shown me that with normal use, and normal cleaning, ie wash the barrel with water / solvent, then dry and lube....you do get a build up in the rifling....in fact, this may well be what many refer to as "seasoning", if it is allowed to go on indefinately.
Now, what you don't see is....the build up is nothing more than crud, and will eventually destroy pin-point accuracy when the patch can no longer grasp the rifling to properly spin the ball...in effect, the patched ball is allowed to "skip" just a bit, which disturbs the otherwise normal harmonics of the barrel, and places the center of the gravitational spin toward different exit points of the muzzle, and this comes about with the same effect as a damaged crown....sometimes you can see this on recovered patches, sometimes not.
Sometimes you will get galling on the lands, sometimes not, depending on patch quality. But you will see it eventually on paper, and the increased difficulty in loading.
Now, having said all this nonsense, I will say that your choice of powder(s) has a tremendous lot to do with build up.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: vermontfreedom on November 14, 2008, 04:42:21 PM
Quote from: "Minnesota Mike"
Observations of the best shooters at our club is that you get better performance from a barrel that has had a pantena build up in it after several sessions. The pantene seems to help make the patch seal tighter. r/ MM
That seems to confirm the practice of centerfire sharpshooters use of fouling shots and not scrubbing between groups.
Post by: vermontfreedom on November 14, 2008, 04:44:36 PM
This is what I've always believed "seasoning" meant for MLs.
Post by: jtwodogs on January 17, 2009, 01:28:41 PM
Their Polymers seem to out perform some other motor oils, this stuff acts like creeping Kroil, you can close the lid as tight as you can but the stuff still creeps out, I think you guys might like it.
Post by: shootrj2003 on November 05, 2010, 12:12:32 PM