Accuracy and lock time?

[mark davidson]

Observation: I am kinda new as you know here but to me the flintlock at least SEEMS a LOT slower than caplock. My flinter is plenty fast igniting with no pfffft-boom and I think I do have the proper loading method fairly down-pat. However, when I shoot a caplock the ignition seems just darn near instant! I can tell virtually no difference between my caplock Mler and my modern centerfire. The flinter on the other hand is obviously slower than either one and absolutely requires more follow through and concentration . The flinter is fun and I virtually never shoot or hunt with the caplock any more and my new custom guns are all flinters. Still I think flint is slower and noticably slower than caplocks and more of a challenge to shoot really well. JMO

[pathfinder]

If you don't practice for a perfect follow thru, it really doesn't matter which is faster. You can hit targets with a good hang fire if you follow thru with yer shot! Interesting to ponder on the differences though.

[Ohio Joe]

I don't feel lock time plays that big of a part with accuracy when we're talking 10ths of a second.  

There are very good caplock shooters, and there are very good flintlock shooters.  These folks who are good with either ignition system - got good through practicing with one specific ignition.  

Accept what you own (cap or flint) and practice every chance you get and then make room to practice even more.  That is the only way to accuracy.  There simply are no short cuts no matter what you choose to shoot.

Just my two cents worth...

[Captchee]

also original caps were much more subject to moisture  then today's, i also believe reliability to be a gimmick  when it comes to the cap . there simply is no way of knowing if the cap has been contaminated . where with a flintlock , its easily seen . the other issue is the nipple . you cannot tell if it is fouled tell you get the dreaded pop . while a flintlock may have 1 more moving part . 2 id you count the top jaw. 3 if you count the jaw screw . the flintlock actually has  the same when you add the nipple m bolster and clean out of a cap lock rifle . depending on the cap lock , a flintlock can actualy have less  parts then  a caplock to  


 in fact when you think about it . there is less  that could go wrong with a flintlock then a cap lock  when we com pair what could render then un usable .

 through the years  i have hunted and shot both in about every imaginable type of weather . myself, i find the flintlock to be much more reliable, exspecialy in wet weather . this is why that all my rifles and fowling piece are flintlocks . this wasn't always so and it took some learnin . but today  there are not many takers when a lay a 5 spot on the barrel of pie   to the person who will stand in the rain with me , betting on  my flintlock will clatch before their caplock will lol

[Mike R]

yep, flintlock devotees will defend their locks to the death--now don't get me wrong, I love my flinters, I just think that emotion gets the better of  us when history tells a different story.  I have been shooting rifles offhand since I was about 5 years old. I am 64 now.  Started with .22s. You get used to finding a sight picture and squeezing off a shot, then relaxing, because the bullet has cleared the bore before you lose the sight picture.  I find caplocks [or at least MY caplocks] to handle very much like my old .22s offhand.  I do NOT find my flintlocks [all high quality ones] to handle the same way--they require a longer hold.  That is evidence enough for me to say that my caplocks are faster. But each to his own as my ol' pappy used to say.  As for reliability, facts simply do not support the notion that flinters were more reliable under all conditions--that flinters can be made reliable enough is an individual question--what is 'enough' for each person?  I personally do not care if I get a small percentage of failures to fire with my well-tuned and excellent locks. But my experience has been that I get alot fewer failures with my caplocks.  A gunmaker friend of mine with alot of experience always substitutes a caplock for his favorite deer hunting flinter in rainy weather. He wants meat.  If a person has the time and inclination to constantly check between every shot all the things on a lock--priming, flint condition, touchhole condition, etc--and weather is OK, he will likely get reliable ignition.  Fast is another story.  Can you guys honestly say that you never get failures to fire with your flinters?  Down here in Lousyanna we have high humidity and I have had my pan and touchhole gum up after one shot!  Action timing is in part due to the type of lock you are using. Some have long hammer throws and others short ones.  So it is hard to make blanket statements about how fast a flinter is--which flinter?  Most caplocks have a quick hammer fall, but they too are dependent on the lock size.  I had a little L&R Bailes flint lock which had a very fast short throw, especially as compared to the Chambers Colonial Virginia lock on another rifle.  anyway I own 6 flinters and three caplocks--and I ain't getting rid of any of them!

[IronDawg]

I have an old traditions cap lock and a custom made flinter with an L&R Manton lock on it. This human can tell. the flint lock  on the custom is faster than the cap lock on the stock traditions rifle. I know thats a custom compared to a stock, but still. I can tell it. And my accuracy shows it.

[rollingb]

I won't argue with anyone regarding actual "lock time" on well tuned flint or percussion guns, because I think they are very nearly the same (at least on my rifleguns).

Where I think we see the biggest difference in "time",... when comparing flint and percussion systems,... is the actual time of the main powder-charge's "ignition", which is often (mistakenly) included when talking about lock-time.

[Captchee]

i think mike , the word experience is the key here .
 flintlocks , powder for powder will shoot at a lower velocity then a cap lock , do to the flash hole .. percussion caps fail  and they fail from moisture . i also again believe this boils down to a gimmick and convenience . imagine the marketing  back tin the 1820's .  basically the same as today  for the latest greatest thing .  it doesn't mean its better . doest mean it more reliable .
 I mean really , cant we all hear it now ?

Tired of losing your flint ? how about the constant battle of keeping it sharp and in alignment .
Are you worried for the little woman  being able to  understand the complexities of the flintlock rifle , when it comes to home protection . Are you tired of that cloud of smoke  coming from the pan  .
 with our new patent percussion cap , you can simply forget about all these issues . no more messing will dull rocks  or alignments . the cap fits correctly every time. juts place the cap on the  percussion nipple , cock and fire . even the little lady can do it . also with this system you get the added benefit  that less smoke clouds your view , with no pesky flash  to blind or throw sparks at your face .

 i think we could go on and on with that . but i submit that their is a reason that the flintlock  is the longest lasting  firearms ignition system.

also for the record here . i learned on a cap lock . basically because i fell for all the sales pitches and more . but then i found one day that  they for the most part were false or just something to get me to buy one product over another .
 my wife  still shoots a capper . she doenst like the flash of a flinlock . But i chose a flintock because  through the years  of not only using both systems for hunting and target shooting. here in the west as well as the South    , in all types of weather . I find the flintlock , once learned , to be much more reliable .. but here is the key , ONCE LEARNED. its not a set it and forget it system .
To answer your question mike , yes i have had clatches . and i do have clatches now and then maybe 1 in 50-75 shots . flash in the pan maybe one in a great while . most times it happens when i forget to load LOL .

 had this happen while hunting ? yep i have . BUT when i set down and ask why , the finger always ends up pointing at me . IE the flint needed change and i knew it .
 one time i had a pan foul .  i knew if i wasn't more careful it would foul .  i simply got lazy . when the time came  and the rifle didn't work , i was mad, but guess what . the only person i could blame was me . see i failed to do my part .  in failing to do so , the team lost  because i didn't  uphold my end .

so  as time goes on  more and more gimmicks come out . all designed so folks have to worry and do less and less . while  it can be said that they reduce the possibility of human error . i submit that they also reduce the possibility of human  intervention proper to a mechanical error .
 i would hope that  in today's world  the  quality of these caps are better the 150 years ago . but if so  why the % of cap failure in  just 1 tin ?. why do folks prefer one brand over another ?? surly they all are better then those made 150 years ago ?.

 but for me LMAO , when my wife's rifle goes pop , pop, or she throws away an empty tin. i just smile , Knapp alittle off my rock and keep on shooting , because she forgot and left the tin of caps open on the tail gate  all morning

[Gordon H.Kemp]

I think captchee has found the secret word " experience " !! I believe that the majority of folks that shoot flint are on average ,more interested in the mechanics involved in what actions produce the quickest and most consistant ignition. For the most part, the " average " caplock shooter knows little of the mechanics of his/her gun. Most believe the hype of the mfg./dealers. I would have to add " dedecation " to detail to go along with "experience ".

[mark davidson]

Information and a little UN-hardheadedness were the keys to making me a flintlock convert. I was VERY skeptical at first of flinters. I took the plunge and learned everything I could about rock angle and the best type locks and types of flints and how much powder in the pan and picking the vent hole and all the stuff that you "experienced" guys already knew. The result was a custom flinter for me with two more on the way. I have had ZERO malfunctions while hunting. The absolute only failures to fire I have had otherwise were due to a blunted and broken flint that needed changing. I keep fresh powder in the pan while hunting and I have hunted in some sho-nuff muggy humid Mississippi weather and also in light rain and killed deer in it with no hangfire or mess up. I find messing with the little pan primer easier to prime and un prime than placing and removing the cap with cold fingers. My point is that I am a real newbie to flinters and black powder in general but with a little knowlege have found flintlocks to be absolutely reliable and way more fun than my caplock guns. Experience is important but it did not take me a decade to get a flintlock to work reliabley. I killed seven deer with my new one the first season in all types of weather.  Accuracy is just as good from a solid rest as caplock but the flinter is a bit harder to shoot accurately off-hand at least to me. I bet time and experience helps that too. :-)

[Loyalist Dave]

Actually, the original patent for percussion ignition using fulminate of mercury was in 1807 by Alexander John Forsyth, with an idea to improve his bird shooting by eliminating the flash of the pan.  This was called the "scent bottle" lock.  He developed his ignition system at The Tower Armories, England's government, military arsenal.  His activities were halted due to the danger of accidental explosions wrecking England's National Armory, and the decision to halt the experiments and developement was made by the Master General of Ordinance.  Napleon Bonaparte offered to buy the idea.  (Sounds military to me)

Joseph Manton took the idea a step further, and came up with the tube or "pill" lock, which used a pellet of Fulminate of Mercury.  Forsyth's previous system was an enclosed chamber that was primed like a flinter, then sealed, and the impact on an external pin caused the mercury to detonate while keeping the flash enclosed.  Manton's was simpler and quicker.  While bird hunters liked the system, it wasn't widespread until it was adopted by the Austrian Army for their muskets.  (Again, military)

Joshua Shaw, an Englishman, figured out the percussion cap, and patented it in 1822 in America to avoid legal action by Forsyth and Manton in England.  8 years later, it was adopted by the armies of Great Britain, France, and Russia for muskets.  3 years later it was adopted by Britain and Russia for cannon.  

In America the vast majority of shotgun, pistol and riflemakers, made flintlocks, until state armories and the United States Army adopted the caplock system.  The US Model 1842 was the first in the American army, and 275,00 were produced.  Copper caps were expensive, so a system of tape with pellets of FM was developed by Dr  Edward Maynard, and adopted in the US Model 1855 Rifle (sometimes called the Springfield 1855) at the order of the Secretary of War, Jefferson Davis (late the President of The Confederate States of America).  The  Model 1861 abandoned the system, and returned to the simpler caplock.    

In the United States, the following models 1842, 1855, 1861, and 1865 rifled musket amounted to 1,735,000 caplocks produced over roughly a 25 year period, or 69,400 caplock military rifles per year.  

LD

[Ohio Joe]

I had a little L&R Bailes flint lock which had a very fast short throw, especially as compared to the Chambers Colonial Virginia lock on another rifle.  anyway I own 6 flinters and three caplocks--and I ain't getting rid of any of them!

Mike, I have had both the Cap & Flint lock version's of the little L&R John Bailes on the same rifle (a conversion) and I believe them both to be fast.  Actually I can't tell a lot of difference other then the groupings are never the same as they wouldn't be because of the amount of gasses escaping from the vent as compared to what little gasses escape from under the hammer of a cap rifle.  You just have to aim and hold on target a bit different with each one.  The caplock Bailes is dead nuts on.  A lot of this is probably do to the throw, and the mainspring not being overly heavy (in either the cap or flint lock).

To continue, in saying this I would add that the speed of ignition from these two L&R locks is more from a direct results of the vent being removed and a "drum" being installed.  When powder is loaded it also goes into the drum.  A good RWS cap (the only type I use) will give very fast ignition - no worries, and never fails.  A person has to buy good caps.

Secondly I can see a caplock with a slant breech for example becoming slower in ignition simply through the distance that the jet of flame coming from the cap has to travel to reach the main charge.  In this instance I would give the flintlock the edge in lock time,,, and at the very least - equal lock time compared to the flintlock.

I do believe both ignitions are reliable if care is taken when loading and then priming or placing a good quality cap on a nipple.  If the cap is not seated on the nipple then the rifle may not go off on the first hammer strike.  Then again if care is not given to the flint and frizzen, it may not produce results either.

Both ignition systems can be waterproofed with bees wax either around the priming pan edges, or the sides of the nipple.  Anyone who misfires has themself to blame, not the ignition system.

Again I'll say I have seen fantastic flint and cap shooters in my time.  I've seen more fantastic cap shooter simply because that is what most folks use.  That's just the way of it.

So, I guess the question really becomes, can a flint shooter out shoot a cap shooter and vise-versa...  Sure, it all comes down to how well practiced each individual is with what they choose to shoot.  If they are good with either ignition system it is because they took the time to learn one or the other and they have stuck with it.

[biliff]

i would hope that in today's world the quality of these caps are better the 150 years ago . but if so why the % of cap failure in just 1 tin ?. why do folks prefer one brand over another ?? surly they all are better then those made 150 years ago ?.

Never underestimate the ability of today's modern manufacturing methods to produce cheap junk.

150 years ago, percussion caps could be had that were waterproofed with varnish or lacquer and sometimes the compound was further protected with an additional layer of foil.

I don't believe (may be wrong) that any of today's manufacturers do that, probably because of cost issues. If anybody knows of waterproof caps let me know.

You can, however, take some extra steps and waterproof them yourselves. Not really worth the time for target shooting, but definately a plus while hunting.

[Ohio Joe]

Actually biliff, a couple years back I dropped a few CCI caps in the snow outside my workshop that I later found in the spring after the snow melted away.  Just for the heck of it I decided to see if they would still work after laying in the snow and rain for 3 months.  I couldn't say for sure how long they had been drying in the sunny grass before I found them but they both went right off without any problems, one in the workshop and one at the range with a 65 grain load of 3fg Goex.

It convinced me that CCI was a good cap, though these days I prefer the RWS caps because I have about 10,000 of them on hand that I got for a great price many years ago.

I've seen folks use the Remington caps and they seem to have a lot
of misfires which I believe is due to the paper plugging the nipple and the jetting flame just doesn't reach the charge.

In all honesty of what Mike R was relating to us, I've seen far more failure to fire from flintlock users then cap users.  Then again it all depends on the individual and how well they know and take care of their muzzleloader...

[Mike R]

...I think I am being slandered here