Hardcore frontier types

[KHickam]

Now - I will give you credit in the argument that most of us are not hardened on the frontier or with super hard work with which the original frontiersman/trappers/traders delt with on a daily basis - but my experience in the Desert taught me that humans adapt physically to their environment quickly (so, I really don't buy the argument that physically we could not do it - although Capt Chee made the argument - perhaps not being able to adapt quickly enough)

But, by adapting to the climate and environment if you could do it for days or perhaps weeks - a season would come too.  Humans when forced to are very resourceful.

There are period accounts of 40ish and even at least one 60ish frontiersman surviving over a couple seasons.  Daniel Boone for instance is said to have made it to Wyoming in his 70s or 80s (legend perhaps?) but their is no doubt he was in his mid 40s when captured/adopted and escaped to warn the settlers of the Shawnee in his mid 40s! Reznor was said to be in his 60s and met his end in Capt Chee's country by indians!

[rollingb]

Now - I will give you credit in the argument that most of us are not hardened on the frontier or with super hard work with which the original frontiersman/trappers/traders delt with on a daily basis - but my experience in the Desert taught me that humans adapt physically to their environment quickly (so, I really don't buy the argument that physically we could not do it - although Capt Chee made the argument - perhaps not being able to adapt quickly enough)

But, by adapting to the climate and environment if you could do it for days or perhaps weeks - a season would come too.  Humans when forced to are very resourceful.

There are period accounts of 40ish and even at least one 60ish frontiersman surviving over a couple seasons.  Daniel Boone for instance is said to have made it to Wyoming in his 70s or 80s (legend perhaps?) but their is no doubt he was in his mid 40s when captured/adopted and escaped to warn the settlers of the Shawnee in his mid 40s! Reznor was said to be in his 60s and met his end in Capt Chee's country by indians!

I agree with the above post,... and I can also relate to what Mario said about living without electricity and running water, I lived that way in interior Alaska for a little more than 8 consecutive years while I was in my 50's (and thought nothing of it). It was probably easier for me (then some people) because over the period of my entire life I've only lived in a "town" for about 3 1/2 years, and that "town" had a population of less than 30 souls.

Could I go back and live in interior Alaska again under those past conditions???,... yep, I could but life (like that) would be a little more difficult now 'cause I've re-adjusted to all the modern convieniences again.

[tg]

iIbelieve I would have stood a pretty god chance of making it back thenif I were to attempt it 30 years ago, today I would be a middle aged corpse in short order most likely.

[mario]

and I can also relate to what Mario said about living without electricity and running water, I lived that way in interior Alaska for a little more than 8 consecutive years while I was in my 50's (and thought nothing of it). It was probably easier for me (then some people) because over the period of my entire life I've only lived in a "town" for about 3 1/2 years, and that "town" had a population of less than 30 souls. :evil:

Mario

[rollingb]

and I can also relate to what Mario said about living without electricity and running water, I lived that way in interior Alaska for a little more than 8 consecutive years while I was in my 50's (and thought nothing of it). It was probably easier for me (then some people) because over the period of my entire life I've only lived in a "town" for about 3 1/2 years, and that "town" had a population of less than 30 souls.

I might also mention, that the only "town" I ever lived in, was AFTER I moved back to Wyoming (from Alaska).

I grew up without electricity and running water,... and I can remember my folks getting electricity and their first "refrigerator" when I was 13 years old. :rotf ).  

[Captchee]

Been thinking a lot about this and im wondering if really whats being said here is from  many different views of what we are talking about .
 Possibly
1 view of  if a person with today’s knowledge  found himself in the 18th  or early 19th century .
 A  2 view of  if said person was suddenly transported  back to that time .  Within this  we  have a general  population as well as a  frontier or fur trade person
 The 3  a consideration of if   the 18th and early 19th centuries suddenly were  propelled forward and people had to deal with those issues today .

[Loyalist Dave]

A good example of what we are talking about is best illustrated I think by the "House" series developed by PBS.

Well the series made me gag!  Sorry, but I know for a fact that they chose people very heavily dependent on modern tech (city folk), NOT a random sample which would've (imho) been a better "experiment".  

In Colonial House they mostly chose people who had never raised any edible plants, and that had conflicting mind-sets and world views.  The woman who was constantly b!t#@ing about how she was treated was chosen because she was going to create problems.  I understand that they didn't want living historians, but they omitted Boy Scouts and people with 4H experience too.  I've never planted a field by hand, nor have I ever read how it was done, but after twenty seconds of watching them I had a better way of doing it and nobody would've lost a hoe as they did.  <gag>    

Frontier House omitted hunting, and claimed that "it wasn't hunting season"..., PBS anti-hunting agenda is what it was.  How tough would it have been for them to set up a target in a random field at a distance from the "settlers", for short periods of time, and IF it was spotted, and IF they shot it and hit it, they could've then been given a 1/2 side of beef at the target location.  It would've been nice to see the hunter race home, gather the settlement, and they all drop everything and race back to cut it up, get it home, and salt/smoke it before spoilage.  (No..., couldn't do that...it might show hunting in a good light)  I wished the fool getting married had sampled the run from the still as he took his bath as he suggested..., we could've then seen the effects of fusil oil poisoning.

In health and medicine a random sampling of modern folks would do better (imho) than the historic population, as we have a better grasp of sanitation.  Throw in some good first aid, and the knowledge of vitamins, and health wise you'd be ok.

Use of tech is another matter.  The frontier series showed that city folks with no lower tech training won't do well.  OK so take a bushman from the Kalahari without his tools, and give him an apartment in NYC and see how long it takes for him to set the place on fire, get sick, get mugged, or get arrested.  Not knowing the tech doesn't make a person "tougher", it just means a person is at a disadvantage.  

As for physical toughness, yes I agree the folks of today do not have the pain threshold of days gone by.  Included in that is the pain of hunger.  Many don't have the tenacity to survive either, and would stop fighting the elements and/or the critters, as they would simply decide such a fight was hopeless.  It's not a situation they have ever faced.  

Strength wise I agree, the strength of folks back then was greater as it was something they had to develop through their whole lives.

Yet there are stories of modern folks trapped in their damaged cars after and accident surviving for several weeks, and don't forget there was the Uruguayan Rugby team with 16 survivors trapped in the Andes who survived after a plane crash and many days with only the corpses of their friends for food.

LD

[rollingb]

LD,... I agree with what you say.
Me'n the family watched a bit of Texas Ranch House and we commented to each other (at the time) that they couldn't have picked worse people for the show. Heck,... the guy that made the ranch-decisions (actually it was his goofy bi^@h-of-a-wife making'em for him) was some sort'a "executive-type" from a big city hospital. :th dn  

[Captchee]

you know the scarry part  though is that people like us are said to be the minority .
as such  we know better . however IMO  depending on where you live , what you saw on those shows , may very well be a cross section of the majority

[Spotted Bull]

Gentlemen this is turning into a great discussion and I have enjoyed reading it very much.  But I wanted to pose a question related to this topic.  

Let's say that something happened and we as a planet were thrust into, not the 18th or 19th century, but were left with no other resources in THIS century but what we could manage on our own.  I am sure that this topic has been beaten to death, but would our world survive?  Would the more "city-fied" folks come to folks like us to help them survive?

[Uncle Russ]

Ya know, there is a funny side to all this when you're setting on the sidelines reading.

Captchee says...."you know the scarry part though is that people like us are said to be the minority."...
Then RB asks...." Would the more "city-fied" folks come to folks like us to help them survive?"

I would answer Yes, Yes, Yes!

Yes we are a minority, and you can bet your last dollar that when it comes to the real "push and pull" those more "City-fied" folks are going to be beating your door down just to learn how to plant and grow, how to dress Wild Game, and how best to prepare all this....all while keeping warm in some make-shift shelter.

They are "City-fied" because they want it that way, they recognize life is much easier, and requires absolutely little to zero out side effort.
They are motivated by money and the luxury & leisure it can buy....they're just different, they ain't stupid.

However, when the tables turn, and they are left with no choice, they will come, and they will come by the hundreds, and they will "toughen-up" as the situation dictates....the alternative will be obvious.

Just my thoughts.

Uncle Russ...

[deadfallpaul]

Yes we are a minority, and you can bet your last dollar that when it comes to the real "push and pull" those more "City-fied" folks are going to be beating your down down just to learn how to plant and grow, how to dress Wild Game, and how best to prepare all this....all while keeping warm in some make-shift shelter.
............................................................
However, when the tables turn, and they are left with no choice, they will come, and they will come by the hundreds, and they will "toughen-up" as the situation dictates....the alternative will be obvious..............
Uncle Russ...

     As a psychologist I understand human behavior quite well and that behavior is to take the easy route 99% of the time.
   Changing ones lifestyle and perception of how to live does not come easy nor does it happen overnight.  We are creatures of habit and old habits are hard to break.

I would agree with SOME of them EVENTUALLY learning some survival skills but I believe the IMMEDIATE response in a crisis situation for most of them would be to come to us, yes, but not to learn but to take what they can get from us.
 This being by stealing, robbing.buying or whatever means they can.
 Take for example NEW Orleans. The looting and stealing that occurred.

I, like so many others in this day and age, am prepared to meet this head on and protect what I have by whatever means is necessary.
 Also like many others on this board I have the skills required to survive.
 As I have mentioned here in the past I have trapped since I was nine yrs. old and did it in the 70"s and 80's to have an income while homesteading and raising 2 sons. Not muskrat trapping as a kid but running long truck lines and skinning 150 - 200 fox plus coyotes and then to the water line later for mink and 'rats.
 This being the only income for my wife an I except farm chores for neighbors and whatever else we could come up with.
 I presently live in a log cabin made from logs cut off the home site and heat with wood (which I have done all my life but for 5 yrs I was away).

I have a "bug out bag" (Alice pack) loaded with what I need to get on for a long time all packed and ready to go if T.S.H.T.F. and I have to move quick.

In a way a catastrophe like the one mentioned may just be what this world needs to "clean up the gene pool"!!!

THIS IS JUST MY NOT SO HUMBLE OPINION AND YOU ARE WELCOME TO BELIEVE ANY OTHER WAY INCLUDING A "WARM AND FUZZY" AND ALL WILL PREVAIL ENDING.    

[Sir Michael]

LD I know what you are saying about the shows.  I spent most of my time watching them flounder about yelling at the TV "you idiot that's not how it's done."  My point about the shows is that most people don't have a clue.  That's also one reason that I've never watched a "Survivor" show for more than a minute or two.  People are stupid.  But as my father used to say, "you can learn something from every situation even if it only how NOT to do something."

From the posts here it is obvious that many of us feel we have or once had the skills to make it in the Mountains in the 1800s.  The argument is purely academic and relevant only for each individual who must make the determination on their own.  For those that currently live "off the grid" who knows they don't have computers or contribute to the forum.  However, their insight into what has to be done to survive may be of great interest.  

I have seen a show that to me has to be the closest thing to "reality" on PBS and it was "Alone in the Wilderness" a video diary made by Dick Proenneke who retired at age 50 in 1967 and moved to Alaska, built a cabin and lived there.  It is truly of value when considering this subject I believe.

[Loyalist Dave]

I have seen a show that to me has to be the closest thing to "reality" on PBS and it was "Alone in the Wilderness" a video diary made by Dick Proenneke who retired at age 50 in 1967 and moved to Alaska, built a cabin and lived there. It is truly of value when considering this subject I believe.

INDEED that is a GREAT movie, even though earlier versions (not shown on PBS) show him carrying his rifle more often than did the PBS airing.  

I think, my opinion, if you took a random sampling of individuals from across the country, a few country boys or girls and a boy scout or two, would've made drastic differences in the shows.  In Colonial House they should've put the feminist into the stocks for 24 hours without food or bathroom priviledges (hey they could've paid her extra for it) and then got her impression of what that was like.  Captchee is right, they might have had a good sample, but my professor who taught me scientific method for sampling would've cried "FOUL" when he learned of their deliberate exclusions instead of random chance.

This being by stealing, robbing.buying or whatever means they can.  Take for example NEW Orleans. The looting and stealing that occurred.

 Ah but remember too that the fools didn't loot food, water, ammo, medicine, candles..., they waded through waist high water to steal TV sets for a city that was without power!
They were not successful when they ran into armed resistance.

Remember Y2K???  I met a survivalist who said he'd simply take from his neighbors.  I corrected him thus...,
In the first few days of an emergency like Y2K where everything is in place except electric power, the government will lie to the people to stop panic, and will say "It'll all be better in a few days".  Then the government will maybe distribute some food and some water, and will say "It'll all be over in a week; at the most two."  A person won't rob his neighbors in those two weeks, as it just MIGHT be over in that time, and the police will be by to collect the robbers, or worse the murderers who shot the neighbors for food.  NO..., by the time it becomes obvious that the problem is long-term..., most of the neighbor's food and water (if they have any) will have been consumed.  The cities will run out of food fast, and the people will then migrate outward.

Now when it comes to folks like "us" on this board..., we would (I hope) be prudent, and take a little vacation to the woods in a day or two after the event occurs, and set up a rather permanent camp, start canning veggies, and harvest and salt meat.  By the time the neighbors think they should start consulting me, me and mine will be loooong gone.  I will, of course, advise them to flee and seek shelter too, and if I am wrong they will think I am a nutcase (as if they don't already think the dude in the colonial outfits and the longrifle is a bit "odd").  Being thought of as "odd" has an advantage..., the knuckleheads that are some of my neighbors leave me alone.  

I have some supplies set aside, for hurricanes.  Sure, they don't often hit in Maryland, but I remember two in my lifetime, plus an ice storm, and regardless of the true cause of the global climate changes, (be they normal, solar, or man made) the storms are getting a bit worse in some areas.

IF you are prepared for a hurricane, and to not have to go to the store for 30 days, IMHO you are also prepared for anything man made as well, no?  Terrorist, pollution, or Mother Nature, the end situation is about the same.  (WE CAN learn from earlier times, and set aside some basic foods, seeds, and firstade supplies folks!!)

I remember hurricane Andrew God-smacked Florida something fierce in '92..., I also remember one photo of a neighborhood flattened by the storm, and among the rubble stood a full sized lodge and a cookset on fire irons over a fire!  The only person comfortable among several hundred homes was the Black Powder dude and his family!  I also saw a photo with a sign that read "Looters Will Be Shot and another read " U loot U-Die.  New Orleans has restrictive gun laws; FL has the opposite, not much looting in FL (but that's getting waaay off topic)

LD

[jbullard1]

........I will, of course, advise them to flee and seek shelter too, and if I am wrong they will think I am a nutcase (as if they don't already think the dude in the colonial outfits and the longrifle is a bit "odd"). Being thought of as "odd" has an advantage..., the knuckleheads that are some of my neighbors leave me alone. Smile ...........

I resemble that remark