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Author Topic: Trade Value of Goods!  (Read 266 times)

Offline SAWMA

Trade Value of Goods!
« on: May 07, 2010, 08:54:53 AM »
Was reading about the trade value of goods in terms of beaver skins roughly 1804-1805.

You could get a tomahawk for 1 beaver pelt, a brass kettle for 2, two fine knives for 1, a gun for 10. Then it came to a keg of powder for 50, a sack of bullets for 40, and a sack of beaver shot for 50. What was beaver shot?

It also said it took 21 squirrel hides to equal 1 beaver.
SAWMA

Every Animal Knows More Than You Do!
TMA #193
5/16/14

Offline Mitch

(No subject)
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2010, 03:03:30 PM »
shot was often named for the animal intended to kill...swan shot is NOT that teardrop looking stuff, it is a SIZE of shot...I think pichou had a chart listing all the sizes..
Ride the high trail....never tuck your tail

TMA#211 renewal date 01AUG08

Offline mike rumping

(No subject)
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2010, 04:45:13 PM »
"swan shot is NOT that teardrop looking stuff, it is a SIZE of shot..."??  I've always
heard it was a teardrop or any elongated type of shot, other than round shot.   :?
Can you show me details about your statement?  Not questioning you, but only curious.
Mike
http://www.rumpingproductions.com/
TMA #226
Expires: 2/14/11
"Kentucke, situated on the fertile banks of the great Ohio,
rising from obscurity to shine with splendor, equal to any
other of the stars of the American hemisphere." ...... John Filson

Offline Mitch

(No subject)
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2010, 05:28:35 PM »
Mike-I'm "at work" so I don't have access to any of my info...I had also always been told the same info as you....and was corrected(with documentation!)-the teardrop shot is just called drop or drip shot, if I recall correctly...and Beaver shot, pigeon shot, duck shot, swan shot,etc is how what we now refer to as say 2 or 4 or 00,etc was referenced....I'll do some digging around when I get home and see if I can't find better documents than "what I remember"<GRIN>....might do a check with the Museum of the Fur Trade for this also...
Ride the high trail....never tuck your tail

TMA#211 renewal date 01AUG08

Offline SAWMA

(No subject)
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2010, 02:12:06 PM »
Well, whatever you do, don't do a web search on "Beaver Shot"! YeeeeHa....:-)  Not enough info on that ledger, just a sack of beaver shot for so many pelts. It would be nice to see a chart like for modern shooting. 0 ought buck = .32, Beaver shot = ??. It would have to be pretty heafty to stop a beaver at any distance.
SAWMA

Every Animal Knows More Than You Do!
TMA #193
5/16/14

Offline mike rumping

(No subject)
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2010, 02:32:12 PM »
Thanks Mitch, looking forward to it.
Mike
http://www.rumpingproductions.com/
TMA #226
Expires: 2/14/11
"Kentucke, situated on the fertile banks of the great Ohio,
rising from obscurity to shine with splendor, equal to any
other of the stars of the American hemisphere." ...... John Filson

Offline Capt. Jas.

(No subject)
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2010, 02:59:44 PM »
Tear dropped shot is POORLY made drip shot.
Swan shot is a size of shot as is goose, beaver, etc.
Mike Rumping, check on frontierfolk. I posted the sizes of some of those not too long ago.

Offline Capt. Jas.

(No subject)
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2010, 05:10:16 PM »
Shot sizes according to Ezekiel Baker (of Baker rifle fame)

#1=94 to the ounce
#2= 120
#3=140
#4= 175
#5= 240
#6= 260
#7= 320
#8= 622
#9= 900
#10= 1600
dust = 4300

large buck= 5 to the ounce
small buck= 7
musket grape shot= 9
swan drops= 15
goose drops 24
duck= 34

The closest standard shot to swan shot is #1 buck (#2 buck if you can get it, .27") and the closest to goose shot is #4 buck

Offline Gordon H.Kemp

(No subject)
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2010, 10:13:23 AM »
Now you have  me wondering  about the time period and location  that had any kind of standards of size for shot ?  I would tend to think  this was of English origin ? Are there  supply orders  etc. that reflect this "size standard " ?  I have seen refference to  " chopped shot " and "swan shot '  but never as to a specific size . Would like to see any information that would help to clear up this subject ?
Gordy
TMA Charter Member #144
Expires 3/14/2013

Offline Capt. Jas.

(No subject)
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2010, 06:02:11 PM »
This was one English measurement standard. Before the shot towers you had Rupert (drip) shot for the small stuff Chopped up lead squares was also used and tumbled to take the edge off early on. Some used large gang molds to cast small shot a hundred or more at a time.
Larger shot like swan and goose was from molds.

Hope these reference help. I will send the bill later. :lol:

At Night, we lay by a swift Current, where we saw plenty of Turkies, but pearch'd upon such lofty Oaks, that our Guns would not kill them, tho' we shot very often, and our Guns were very good. Some of our Company shot several times, at one Turkey, before he would fly away, the Pieces being loaded with large Goose-shot.
A New Voyage to Carolina; Containing the Exact Description and Natural History of That Country: Together with the Present State Thereof. And A Journal of a Thousand Miles, Travel'd Thro' Several Nations of Indians. Giving a Particular Account of Their Customs, Manners, &c.
by Lawson, John, 1674-1711
.........................................................................................................




From the Executive Journals of the Council of Colonial Va., February 1st, 1757.

"His honor (Governor) was pleased likewise to lay before the board two letters from Colo. Read dated 24th of january (1757) acknowledging in his first the receipt of his Honor's letter by Capt. Voss, and signifying that he has writ to Mr. Calloway in Bedford to know what arms and ammunition he has, that he had not yet received any account from him and was apprehensive of a bad one in regard to the powder and ball from the extravagant use made of it by the several companies, that 100 guns ordered him, he had supplied as directed Colo. Fontaine with 40 , that Captain Hogg in behalf of Stalnaker had 11 so that only 49 remained, that he has 200 which were last sent, about 600 pounds of powder, but few musket balls and no flints. , desires a supply of 1000 pounds of ball, and 1000 flints to be forwarded by Mr. James Deans, merchant in Chesterfield -he believes it will be some time in March before the volunteers can be ready to go out- He thinks every man should have a wallet of oznabrigs to carry his provisions in when they leave their horses at the passes of the mountains, and two pair of mockasheens- that blankets would be wanted and clasp knives, thread for the linen, and woolen bags for transporting the powder when taken from the wagons....-that after the meeting for the choice of officers, he shall instantly send to his Honor for commissions-enclosing the account of the money he received by his Honor's warrant from the treasurer, and how it has been applied, with an estimate of cash wanting to pay the people employed by him to kill and cure the provisions, also to pay the men and officers of Lunenburg who were out on duty till discharged in November, and accounts of the like nature from Bedford..........In his second letter he desires that a sufficient quanity of large goose-shot may be sent, which is judged preferable to bullets, and proposes as an encouragement to the people in Augusta, Bedford and Halifax who are esteemed the best woodsmen to engage as volunteers in the association that two or three companies of the militia of some of the adjacent counties be sent to garrison the three forts in Augusta during the time the associators shall be out on the expedition......

Here is a quote from the 1746 North Carolina Militia Act:
" . . . IV. And be it further Enacted, by the Authority aforesaid, That any Person or Persons, after having been so inlisted, who shall at any Time hereafter (unless rendered incapable by Sickness or Accident), fail or refuse, on Notice given, to appear, at such Times and Places within the County, as shall from Time to Time, be appointed, by the Colonel or Commanding Officer of the Regiment to which he belongs, for that Purpose, there to be mustered, trained, and exercised in Arms, or that shall not at such Times and Places, be well provided with a Gun, fit for service, a Cartouch Box, and a Sword, Cutlass, or Hanger, and at least Twelve Charges of Powder and Bail, or Swan Shot, and Six Spare Flints, shall forfeit and pay, for his Non-Appearance, the Sum of Five Shillings and Four Pence, Proclamation Money; and in Case they do appear, they shall forfeit and pay Two Shillings and Eight Pence, like Money, for Want of any of the Arms, Accoutrements, or Ammunition as aforesaid; . . . "


"Let fly, then," says I, "in the name of God!" and with that I fired again among the amazed wretches, and so did Friday; and as our pieces were now loaded with what I called swan-shot, or small pistol-bullets.
ROBINSON CRUSOE page 28
by Daniel Defoe (1719)

The Journal of Nicholas Cresswell 1774--1777
Wednesday, June 28th, 1775. This morning started early in a very thick fog. About three miles from our camp, the River was very broad and shallow a long way from the shore on that side we were on, which obliged us to keep out of sight of the shore for deeper water. Opening a point of a Bar, saw 4 Canoes full of Indians about two hundred yards ahead of us, upon which we pushed for the shore, but to our great surprise saw six other Canoes full of Indians betwixt us and the shore so that we were entirely surrounded. Everything was prepared for an engagement, all our lumber and a great part of our provisions were hoved overboard. Out of twelve Guns five were rendered unfit for present use by the wet, mine happened to be in good order and I loaded her with an ounce bullet and seven swan shot.

From James Hanson of the Museum of the Fur Trade:

From James Hanson of the Museum of the Fur Trade:
"Swan shot or "swan drop", as in Shakespearean English, measured out 240 pellets to the pound, compared to duck, plover, pigeon or snipe shot. By today's standard it is synonymous with .28 caliber buckshot.
beaver was .21 cal.
small buckshot was .35
large buckshot .38
etc..
Above in Colonial Era Standard

There is a lot of information to be found in English Guns and Rifles by J N George.

Offline Gordon H.Kemp

(No subject)
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2010, 08:32:50 PM »
Capt. Jas. thank you for the information posted above , the check will be in the mail the 2nd tuesday of next week!!!! :wave
Gordy
TMA Charter Member #144
Expires 3/14/2013

Offline Capt. Jas.

(No subject)
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2010, 04:50:34 AM »
No problem Gordon. Hope they can help.

James

Offline SAWMA

(No subject)
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2010, 07:25:31 AM »
I thank you James, that answered my question. Beaver = .21
SAWMA

Every Animal Knows More Than You Do!
TMA #193
5/16/14