Kentucky rifle?

[SchdyHist]

The Detroit trading posts were tapping into the resources of a very large part of the country. Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and they would sometimes send agents north up into what's now Ontario. And then too, one of the primary trade goods was rum. Johnson mentioned that their thirst for it was unquenchable which makes me wonder how many were driven to kill far beyond what they knew was "right" so they could afford rum.

[mario]

What do you all make of the huge number of 28 gauge balls that Campbell was sending to his trading post in Detroit? That would be about .55 caliber I think, but I don't know the history of long rifles to know whether they would have taken such a ball.

The trade rifle examples I have come across were .55-.62" (+/-).

The other option I was thinking about was that the Native Americans may have loaded one more of them at a time into a large caliber musket, creating a sort of "super shotgun", but I have no idea how correct or even realistic this may be. Any insights you may have would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

With the avg trade gun bore being somewhere around .58-.62 or so, just wouldn't be feasible, really. Too small to make an effective double ball load (which Ned Roberts wrote about in Canada during the 1940s), too big to make an effective shotgun.

SWJ complained of muskets sent to him being of too large a caliber and that the Iroquois wouldn't use them.

Mario

[SchdyHist]

Mario, thanks for the info. Next time I'm around the Campbell letterbooks I'm going to take a closer look at his orders. Johnson's statement above leads me to think his concern was not so much with the large fur-trading operations.

[mario]

Johnson's statement above leads me to think his concern was not so much with the large fur-trading operations.

Well, he WAS the largest operation in the area.

There's also:

"abt. 2 dozn. fusee Guns proved Barrells @ 14/--very good at the price but rather larger bores than those commonly used in the Indian Trade; they would answer very well for a Bullet & Shot & believe wou'd suit the Southern Indians; as I have been told they do not use a single Bullett so much as the Northern Indians."

List of Indian goods at Rock Creek belonging to the Ohio Company, Letters to Washington

It insinuates that the Southern tribes used their guns as shotguns more often, but even going up to musket bore (+/- .750"), using ball of the caliber you describe wouldn't really work well at all. Even less given the fact that Swan shot, Beaver shot, etc are commonly traded.

Mario

[RobD]

so, what was the preferred long gun of the nor'east native americans just before, and then during the rev?

i'd expect it to be a rifle, w/longish barrel - what caliber, stock wood, trigger?

[cb]

so, what was the preferred long gun of the nor'east native americans just before, and then during the rev?

i'd expect it to be a rifle, w/longish barrel - what caliber, stock wood, trigger?

While rifles were used by the Indians, by far the most common long gun was a smoothbore trade gun of one of the period types common to the area.

[mario]

so, what was the preferred long gun of the nor'east native americans just before, and then during the rev?

i'd expect it to be a rifle, w/longish barrel - what caliber, stock wood, trigger?

If by "preferred" you mean what they bought the most of, than the smoothbore trade gun was #1.

Once you leave NY going NE, I see no evidence for rifles until well after the RevWar.

Mario

[RobD]

so, what was the preferred long gun of the nor'east native americans just before, and then during the rev?

i'd expect it to be a rifle, w/longish barrel - what caliber, stock wood, trigger?

If by "preferred" you mean what they bought the most of, than the smoothbore trade gun was #1.

Once you leave NY going NE, I see no evidence for rifles until well after the RevWar.

Mario

for the known colonies of the pre rev and rev ... "preferred" as in - rifled or smooth bore, caliber, long barrel versus short barrel, iron or brass furniture.

[mario]

for the known colonies of the pre rev and rev ... "preferred" as in - rifled or smooth bore, caliber, long barrel versus short barrel, iron or brass furniture.

The vast majority of firearms traded to the Indians of the eastern US, pre-1783 were smoothbores of approximately .58-.62 caliber, barrels in excess of 44" and carried brass furniture.

The basic trade gun of the 18th century was really nothing more than a simplified (and hence, cheaper) version of the fowling piece.

Think NEF Pardner shotgun vs. Holland & Holland SxS.

In the South, you see a move toward rifles (again, 44"+ barrels, .54+ caliber, brass furniture) fairly early on , like the F&I era. But the smoothbore trade gun reigned supreme numbers-wise for many decades after.

Mario

[RobD]

peter alexander's 'the gunsmith of grenville' has some interesting historical info in its preface.  whether it's all truth or theory or conjecture, who knows for sure.  in essence, he writes that during the mid to late settlement period (about the 1750's) the indians wanted long rifles in particular, not smoothbores nor the shorter jaeger rifles, because of the scarcity of game that required killing at longer distances.  he referenced george carroll's 'the indians as riflemen during the golden age and before', along with a very interesting 11/30/1756 letter written by georgian trader daniel pepper to governor lyttelton that talks about his concerns over the indians desires for the long rifle, and in acquiring them makes the natives more of an equal to the settlers.  part of this, or maybe all of it, is that pepper was an indian smoothbore trader, and now the indians wanted rifles.

[mario]

There does seem to be a desire for rifles in the South, but there were actually laws regarding their sale. Most of the time, it was prohibited.

"Regulations For Indian Traders and Rates of Goods

9. Not to sell "Swann Shott" or Rifled Barrel Guns to the Indians."

Mobile, AL. April 10, 1765

As far as why they desired them, it could be various reasons. One being that most southern Indians traded in deer hides and the rifle was simply a more efficient tool for hunting them.

Mario