Might this help

[LongWalker]

No time wasted, it is an interesting discussion. 

Were the two shots at 11 o'clock the last two fired? 

[No Powder]

I just don't honestly remember. That target was shot too long ago. But now I'm interested in knowing what you would have said had I answered yes. Today my 5 shot group at 50 yards was an 1 3/4" group. Three touching in a vertical line, and two others about an inch to the left of the other 3. They were also touching. I believe it is an issue with my eyes. Maybe I'm cross eyed.

[LongWalker]

it could be an issue with your eyes, or it could be a barrel issue, or the wind, or the light.  Back when I was a kid building my first rifle, one of the local club members loaned me a TC Hawken so I'd have something to shoot in the monthly blanket matches over the summer while building my rifle.  With it, I found that if I shot five shots fast (roughly 5 shots in 4 minutes, like you sometimes have to do to beat wind conditions) on a hot day, the shots would climb to one side (also left). 

Over the years since I've seen a few others do the same.  With the rifle Butch loaned me, 5 shots in 4 minutes would usually go about 3 1/2"-4" at 50 yards.  If I waited a couple-three minutes between shots, I could cut the group size in half.  I suspect that the barrel were tweaked a bit when they were breeched, but this is just a hunch. 

Another possibility is that it would be your patch lube.  What I mean by this is that maybe it is taking 3 shots for the fouling to build up to a "status" level that is consistent shot-to-shot.  This could result in 2 groups like you seem to be running into.  Back when I was switching back and forth between neatsfoot oil and olive oil, I had this happen a couple times with olive oil--only in one particular gun, mind you.  It never happened with neatsfoot oil, and since most rifles would group subsequent shots from a fouled bore around the first shot from a clean bore, I've stuck with neatsfoot oil ever since. 

This would be easy enough to test.  Shoot a ten shot group at your normal cadence, and record POI of each shot. 

[No Powder]

LongWalker, your knowledge about these types of things is mind boggling. Thank you so much. I'm sending a picture of another target I shot yesterday. You'll notice the ingredients of this load is a bit different than the previous target. As Winter hawk stated, he would be happy with these groups. But when I think of splitting a card, or shooting a piece of rope off hanging vertically, I just feel some tweaking needs to be done. And the 70 grain load is the one I will be tweaking.
Been a big fan of LV patch lubricant for years. Tried Mr. Flintlock the other week. Not much difference other than POI changing a bit. Looked at info tonight about homemade lubes using water, Ballistol, and Dawn. Thinking about trying these in the very near future. [ Invalid Attachment ] I also need to say the 3 shots in the group on the right are not touching as I said in my last post. Sorry.

[No Powder]

Well I did say, I was planning on trying patch lube recipes. I'm really looking forward to trying the Dawn & water home brew. When I first heard about this, it was a 50-50 mix. Personally I think that's a waste of Dawn. When I wash dishes in the sink, a small squirt of Dawn in the water makes the dishes so slippy I have trouble holding them. So I'm leaning towards 95% water and 5% detergent. Has anybody else used this combo ? Looking for opinions and or suggestions.

[LongWalker]

Most of the guys using it seem to be in the 40%-50% soap range, but no one says you have to mix up a gallon.  Back when I was a kid I knew a guy who used a 50-50 mix of water and the cheapest dish soap he could find, so I'm not sure it even has to be DAwn. 

A couple of shooters I really respect are using a mix of the cheapest windshield washer fluid they can find (ammonia-free, and without all the additive chemicals like de-icers, etc) with 4-6 ounces of neatsfoot oil and a squirt or two of Dawn added to each gallon.  Shake it up before lubing patches as it settles a bit in storage.

[No Powder]

You're right about not mixing a gallon. I just dumped 1/2 gallon of a recipe from an elderly gentleman who used to shoot at Friendship. (2nd hand info). Included a lot of different ingredients, like castor oil, witch hazel, and several others and 16 oz. of water. I can't even remember if I tried any of it. All the items had to be added in a specific order and had to be shaken after each ingredient was added. Might have bee the greatest lube ever, but too much hassle and cost for me.
The only reason for mentioning Dawn, was because that's what the wife has on hand. When I say Dawn, I think of those little ducks that they clean the oil off of after the oil spill.
Just thinking that the problem child TC 50, just might need some lube that's a bit more slippy. So I think about 8 oz. should be more than enough to do a little experimenting.With any kind of luck, maybe Monday or Tuesday I will just get to try it out.

[LongWalker]

From my notes, it looks like a couple of guys around '93 were having good results using Dawn full-strength.  I was never a fan of soap-heavy lubes (the smell and mess got to me).  I do like the single-ingredient lubes though--it doesn't get much simpler than that. 

[No Powder]

Simple is the key word. I mixed 1oz. of Dawn and 7 oz. of water. Put some in a small can and put about 6 patches in it.  Shortly afterward checked the patches and they seemed plenty slippy. After I try this mix, there won't be any increasing, decreasing, or any other changes to the mix. Just want to see how the problem gun likes it. Never heard of anybody using all detergent. Whatever trips their trigger. Would be kind of neat if my gun would blow bubbles when it's fired.

[No Powder]

Well the problem child TC Hawken 50 worked fine at our shoot on Sunday. Was using my old standby lube LV. And I'm still going to try my Dawn and water mix. Probably tomorrow. If it shoots better groups, I'll share the results. If it's no better, you won't hear from me.

[Bigsmoke]

Tom, Not to get too technical because I am not too much of a technical person.

Dawn, or any soap for that matter is what is called a surfactant.  What that does is it makes water wetter.  Whatever water does, it does better with the surfactant.  Hence, you can wash a dish cleaner with dish soap.  Water doesn't cut grease all by itself but with the soap added it does.  So, I guess you could say it is more effective.

I have tried water soluble oil mixed with water and gotten so-so results as a patch lube or a bore cleaner.  But when I added a commercial grade surfactant to it, it was much better. 

Years back, I think it was about 1995, I purchased Ol' Thunder Manufacturing.  One of the products we made was a bore solvent/patch lube called, Ol' Thunder, of course.  It is a great product and still available after a couple of changes in ownership.  Now being produced by Smoke and Thunder in Prather, CA.  I think you can Google for the contact info.

Is it better than Laurel Valley or Mr. Flintlock or?  I dunno, I never tried them.  I thought why should I bother when O/T worked so well.

Anyway, thoughts to ponder as you wander-yonder.

[No Powder]

Thanks John for sharing that info. There are a lot of very knowledgeable people on this forum. But it's sometimes difficult to pry that knowledge out of them. Longwalker and I have been having a good conversation about this sort of thing. Having you share your knowledge is very much appreciated.

Heard a lot of good things about Old Thunder. Didn't know you could still get it. And I've been hearing about this Dawn and water mix. After this past shoot, I wasn't going to try what I have mixed. But I've got nothing to lose, so for fun I'll try it. If it changes my 1 3/4" group to an 1 1/2" group, this dude will think he has accomplished something. And accomplishments are pretty few and far between anymore.

I really like the KISS policy. I think it and the Golden Years go hand in hand. So this may be my last experiment. I've got got more than enough lube to last me the rest of my days. But if it works well, maybe I'll be able to suggest to someone to try it. They might like it.