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Author Topic: Historically correct - Brown or Blue?  (Read 1790 times)

Offline Stormrider51

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Historically correct - Brown or Blue?
« on: June 23, 2014, 06:27:39 PM »
I'd like to pick the brains of those with more historical knowledge of smoothbores than I.  I recently purchased a very nice fowling gun that is "in the white".  I'm aware that many guns were left that way and eventually developed a "patina of age".  I really dislike a barrel with rust splotches on it and I don't like a shiney barrel on a hunting gun.  I'm going to either blue or brown the barrel.  I have the ability to do either one correctly.  But how acceptable is a blued barrel on an American flintlock fowling gun?  

Storm
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Online Bigsmoke

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Re: Historically correct - Brown or Blue?
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2014, 08:19:15 PM »
I'm not much of a PC sort of guy, but I think a rust blued barrel would be acceptable.
Hot blue?  Not so much.
YMMV, and this is the opinion of only me.  Like I say, I am not so much HC/PC.
John
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Offline Captchee

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Re: Historically correct - Brown or Blue?
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2014, 11:29:26 PM »
either would be correct. depending on the time frame  of your piece one maybe more  common the other .
 i would also agree that a chemical blue  would not be correct  and that you would want a rust or fire blue .

Offline Stormrider51

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Re: Historically correct - Brown or Blue?
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2014, 11:43:45 PM »
I've always wondered about this.  If I rust a barrel and card it off before oiling I have a browned barrel.  If I add one additional step and immerse that rusted barrel in boiling water I have classic "rust blueing".  Which was most commonly done?

Storm
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Online Feltwad

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Re: Historically correct - Brown or Blue?
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2014, 01:23:54 AM »
Here in the UK for original barrels such has Damascus and those made of plain iron 99% were slow browned it was not till the early breech loader that barrels were rust black this was known has Birmingham Black . Rust and fire blue was more common in Europe  more so the Gunmakers of  Russia
Has for todays steel barrels  if you want to look original I would go for browning
Feltwad
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Offline Captchee

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Re: Historically correct - Brown or Blue?
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2014, 09:25:56 AM »
again it depends . you dont read much about  browning  here  tell  late in the 18th to early 19th century .
  on the other side of the pond you will also find  the  rust blues and  fire blues , early  exspecialy on higher end guns

Offline mario

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Re: Historically correct - Brown or Blue?
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2014, 12:21:10 AM »
I haven't come across browning in my pre-1783 "travels". Military guns left bright. French arms (military & civilian) left bright.


 Even trade guns (the cheapest guns around) were blued at least part of the time.

Sir William Johnson ordered and received the following in 1770 for the Iroquois trade:

"16 cases contg. 400 Indian fusees provd, Blue barrels...
2 cases of 50 neat [well made] fowling pieces, London proved, blue barrels..."

Mario

Online Feltwad

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Re: Historically correct - Brown or Blue?
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2014, 08:30:49 AM »
Maybe for cheap trade guns to the colonies  were blue or more so black  but in the home market brown
Feltwad
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Offline Stormrider51

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Re: Historically correct - Brown or Blue?
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2014, 11:46:06 AM »
In reading the above comments I'm left wondering if brown vs blue wasn't really a matter of personal preference.  Please bear with me before you get out the scalping knives.  Let's take the three options for metal finish in order.  

Leaving the firearm "in the white" is the easiest from the makers standpoint.  Sure, the gun will rust unless maintenance is performed often and well.  Thus the British soldier being issued "brick dust" and oil to polish his musket.  Even then the metal will eventually develop a "patina of age" which is nothing more than discoloration by rust.

The step from "in the white" to browned is a large one in terms of time invested.  I know this from experience.  The metal must be completely degreased and even fingerprints must be avoided thereafter.  The chosen solution is applied to initiate the rusting.  Once a coat of rust is formed it must be carded off, more solution applied, and the rusting begins again.  This cycle continues until the metal has a uniform brown color when the excess rust is removed.  Failure to remove the excess rust in time can result in pitting of the metal.  The entire process usually takes days.  The benefit is that the rust remaining on the metal absorbs and holds oil thus forming a barrier against air and moisture.  We intentionally create a coat of rust to prevent more rust.

Browning takes a lot of time but taking the step from brown to blue/black takes very little more.  The rusted barrel is dunked into boiling water and the heat causes the red iron oxide to turn black.  The time required is tiny compared to going from white to brown.  So why wasn't blue more common?  Did the gun makers promote blue as representing upper-end work?

Before I close let me add that while I have rust browned dozens of muzzleloader barrels over the years my experience with bluing is limited to hot salts and modern firearms.  Please feel free to correct me if there is something I'm missing here.

Storm
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 02:54:50 PM by Stormrider51 »
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Offline Captchee

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Re: Historically correct - Brown or Blue?
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2014, 02:03:21 PM »
Ok here goes .
 Browning  does not have to take a lot of time .  What takes time is producing that nice brown on steel  vs. iron  .
  When today’s steels rust , it’s the Iron level in that steel  beginning to corrode/ build iron oxide . The lower  that level of iron , the longer  the process to produce a good  quality brown.
 Case in point ,  even here in the area I live in  which is very low humidity , I can  lay up a coat of rust on an Iron barrel in just a  couple hours , using nothing but a humidity box and water . Doing so I can  produce  on iron ,  at minimum 3 good rust and card  cycles a day .
Now if I  stimulate that rusting   with a surface application  “BRONZING”  I can get  very near to a rust cycle every hour . In fact even without  a damp box ,  urine will produce , in this low humidity environment , a very heavy rusting  even on steel , in one day  or a fine rust layer in a mater of hours . No  to mention the stronger the urine , the faster  the rust will build  especially when applied to bare iron or steel  .
Thus , while a fine rust is what were after ,  you can then produce multiple rusting and carding cycles in a day even on steel . more so howvere on iron , for if you dont , you can easly end up with a great degree of pitting on the serface . which IMO is undesirable .

 Now with that being said ,  have you ever noticed what happens when  you get AQUAFORTIS on steel and especially iron and then hit it with heat ?
what you saw  was called Bronzing   Harrison mentions it in his writings  in 1883
“There is another  material sometimes used , which is butter or chloride of antimony. Its sometimes call browning or bronzing salt. When using this substance a mixture is made with it and olive oil . This is rubbed on a barrel that is slightly heated , and is then exposed to the air  until the required  degree of browning is arrived at. The operation  of the antimony is quickened by rubbing after it  , a little aquafortis .”
sound familure ?

 My point is that there are  thousands of different recipes for “quickening”  all that work very well and relatively faster on iron then what we see commonly used of steel barrels today .  

 Ok so lets look at  rust black or rust blue . The process to convert red iron oxide to black iron oxide takes 2 things .
1)heat
2)  H2O  or more correctly  oxygen and hydrogen in the presence of heat
 Manufactures for centuries have built on that simple conversion to the point that the vast majority of what we think today as being chemical blues were or  are ,in fact not .
Winchester blue , Remington blue , Ithica and Colt   black , were all rusting .
 Makers like Purdy , Pauly , Parker , Greener , Richards , Fox ……… all got their  fine finishes from a process of converting  red iron oxide to black iron oxide  and in the process producing  the black staining rust  which gives a very deep and dark color .

 The process can be as simple as heating a  browned barrel to a point  where water will boil , then quenching it or wiping it down  repeatedly as with a cold brown OR as long an drawn out as the process used by Purdy  Parker or Greener or as extravagantly  detailed and complicated as the process used by the likes of  Winchester, Remington  or Colt  .

  But if you truly want to know what  would have been done  for your gun , you need to research the time and place it fits in as well as  the person would  have most lily made it. As I said before . Here in the states , you don’t  read much on  browning being offered until the later  part of the 18th century .more commonly  early in the 19th century .
 Prior to that you had barrels in the bright or in the blue . IE  Grey colors or  blues ranging from fire blue to  rust bluing .    Both of which are very quickly produced on Iron .
 having a  barrel in the bright also doesnt mean rust . if care is aken to prep the barrel correctly  and then maintain  it ,  you should have very little rusting at all as can be attested by the numbers of original pieces which even today have a very wonderful grey color and patena  with little to no rusting

Offline Stormrider51

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Re: Historically correct - Brown or Blue?
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2014, 03:50:39 PM »
Captchee - Thank you for taking time to type all that.  It's the kind of info that will make this site more valuable and hopefully draw new members.  I never used a hot box for browning.  Here in south central Texas the summers are hot and humid.  I would degrease, apply the solution, and let the barrel sit out in the sun.  Even then I never managed more than one carding a day.  It was slower in the winter.

Again, thanks for sharing and that goes for everyone who has contributed to this thread.

Storm
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Offline Bison Horn

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Re: Historically correct - Brown or Blue?
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2014, 05:19:17 PM »
This is a fusil I got from Middlesex Village I've had for a couple of years. Didn't realize it would come as shiny polished steel, so when I recieved it I didn't like the shine so I browned the barrel, butt plate, trigger guard and rr tubes using Laural Mt solution. Left lock & side plate polished. Suits me. BH
Alan Wright

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Offline Stormrider51

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Re: Historically correct - Brown or Blue?
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2014, 05:31:59 PM »
My fowling gun has a white barrel shiney enough that reflected light interferes with seeing the front sight.  It will get a new finish before long.

Storm
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Historically correct - Brown or Blue?
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2014, 06:19:23 PM »
Charles, sometimes you flat amaze me. This is one of those times. :bow
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Offline sse

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Re: Historically correct - Brown or Blue?
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2014, 09:09:58 AM »
Most interesting...
Regards, sse

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