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Author Topic: No crown  (Read 1732 times)

Offline ridjrunr

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No crown
« on: September 10, 2015, 12:21:19 PM »
One thing that is strange about the new to me Hawken is that the barrels end is not crowned. I envision cutting the patch just loading it. Has anyone else observed this before?
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Offline ridjrunr

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Re: No crown
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2015, 12:28:44 PM »
8 grooves
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Re: No crown
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2015, 03:11:19 PM »
t wouldn't take too much to give it a bit of a crown,.... just enough to knock the sharp edge off.  :rt th
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Re: No crown
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2015, 05:35:30 PM »
That is exactly how they came from the factory.
I never had any feedback about cutting patches from any that I sold, nor did I experience any problems when I shot them.
Agreed, it might be better to have a little crown at the muzzle.  But, maybe not necessary.  Try it first and take action if needed.
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Offline ridjrunr

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Re: No crown
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2015, 06:19:24 PM »
Thanks Bigsmoke, thats what I'll try first
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Offline snake eyes

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Re: No crown
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2015, 11:41:47 AM »
ridjrunr,
I have several rifles from .32 to .54 and not a one is crowned and I have never had
any problem like the one you propose.Either I have just been lucky or it is just not
a problem. I thought a crown was there to ease the loading process.FWIW
snake-eyes  :shake  
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Offline Loyalist Dave

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Re: No crown
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2015, 12:44:10 PM »
No the crown has more to accuracy than loading, for the crown of the barrel is important to breech loaders as well.  The edges of the lands and grooves where they end at the muzzle are easily damaged, and a "dent" at some point may play havoc with your accuracy...which is why even modern barrels recess or "crown" their muzzles.  The good news is that you don't need too much to make a good difference.  Quite frankly that looks like a lack of quality control.  You could take a brace-n-bit, and a grinding stone for a drill (the middle one).  Then take a piece of very fine emery paper, dabbed with a couple drops of cutting oil on the abrasive surface, and place it abrasive side down on the muzzle. Use the brace and bit with the above stone to apply pressure against the emery on top of the muzzle, and to cause the emery paper to push down against the edges of the lands and grooves on the muzzle.  Then rotate the emery paper back and forth against the muzzle to polish and create a crown.  

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Offline snake eyes

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Re: No crown
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2015, 08:23:36 PM »
LD,
    Thanks for that info.Learn something every time I visit here. :shake [/color]
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Offline greyhunter

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Re: No crown
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2015, 06:53:51 AM »
I have never seen a muzzle like that on a factory barrel. To me your muzzle looks freshly cut off with a saw. I have TC, CVA and Lyman, and all their muzzles are crowned. Your choice, but I would crown/have it crowned by a gunsmith. I have shortened centerfire rifles and muzzleloaders and they need a centered crown to shoot well. TC in later years used a smooth entry for a short distance before the rifling started on their (not to be mentioned rifles here). This made starting a ball or (unmentionable modern round) easier. I'm not an expert, but it seems to me, starting a ball down your rifles muzzle would be a pita.  ;)
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Offline Hanshi

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Re: No crown
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2015, 12:29:58 PM »
I've broken those sharp muzzle edges with fine sand paper and my thumb.  It doesn't take much to create a smooth rounded entrance for the prb.
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Re: No crown
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2015, 01:07:42 PM »
Well, so the story goes, the folks at Uberti examined Kit Carson's (?) Hawken rifle at a museum and copied it exactly to come up with this rifle.
Anyone ever seen the original rifle?  I haven't.  It would be interesting to know if the original is actually like that or not.
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Re: No crown
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2015, 10:03:40 PM »
Quote from: "greyhunter"
I have never seen a muzzle like that on a factory barrel. To me your muzzle looks freshly cut off with a saw. I have TC, CVA and Lyman, and all their muzzles are crowned. Your choice, but I would crown/have it crowned, by a gunsmith ................ I'm not an expert, but it seems to me, starting a ball down your rifles muzzle would be a pita.  :notworthy

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Re: No crown
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2015, 11:29:01 PM »
FWIW; After looking closely at the OP picture, and noting where that sight is and how far it's set back, and how the rib is cut even to the Barrel, I am almost convinced that Barrel was cut, and then dovetailed for that sight, either for the eyes of the shooter, or to be used with a particular false muzzle, but even then a crown is needed.
And, T/C, to the best of my knowledge, has never used that type of front sight, and the rib ends just before the end of the Barrel.
Perhaps they have used such a sight, but over the years I have never seen it, and I've seen a few of them.
Years ago, my shop once carried Warranty Service for T/C in Lakewood, Colorado.....but they mainted an outside Warranty for only a few years, back in the 1990's. They then decided it was more cost efficient for their own factory to do the work.

Now, having said all that, I have to insure you that this can mean absolutely nothing, within itself.
However, as was mentioned by LD, and greyhunter, not having a properly crowned Barrel can definitely lead to flyers when shooting...unless you use a false muzzle constantly, even for cleaning.

Hanshi described one method, and it works quite well.
I would suggest using a Ballistic Brass Plumb, or BBP, on your power drill...using it lightly, evenly, and with very little pressure.
This fancy sounding name of BBP is nothing more than a funnel shaped piece of brass with an end that fits a 3/8" drill.
There are other methods that work with varying degrees of success, and this magic number of 11 degrees is not carved in stone, as it was simply a "best guess" by none other than P.O.Ackley, sometime back in the early 1940's, and picked as an Industry Standard.
Not because it was "magic" in anyway, but because it worked.
Prior to that, Barrels were "crowned at an angle", that angle being whatever looked good to the builder, and there were some very accurate rifle rifles prior to the 1940's!
Frankfurt Arsenal once used a 17 degree angle on some of their rifles and found , "there was no notable difference in accuracy".

Why all the fuss about the crown?
Because the crown, or the very end of the Barrel is the LAST thing the projectile touches, be it a patched ball, or a conical.
The escaping gases MUST exit the Barrel evenly, in fact, absolutely evenly or the projectile will "yaw" or lean to the opposing side of the damaged area, causing the projectile to strike high, or low, left, or right.
Most crown damage comes from using the wiping stick, and not from dings received while in use, however that too can happen. Once it starts, gas cutting will progressively make it worse.

I, by no means, want to discourage you. What I would like to see is the next picture showing some semblance of a crown, done by you...it easy, very easy. Crocus Cloth, 200 grit sand paper, followed by 400 should shine right nicely, even just using your finger.  
Still yet, no one can over empathize the importance of a properly crowned muzzle....and, properly crowned simply translates to "even, all the way around".

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Re: No crown
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2015, 12:04:40 PM »
Hey Russ,

I think you missed part of the conversation.  In a previous post, ridjrunr had mentioned that he was looking at an Uberti Hawken, which he subsequently purchased.  After he had taken it home, he got to looking at it and was wondering about the flush barrel, hence this post.  Never was the subject of a Thompson Center brought up.  Yes, T/C did make about a kazillion pseudo Hawken rifles but they never did make this one.
My post on 9/22 identified the manufacturer:

Quote
Well, so the story goes, the folks at Uberti examined Kit Carson's (?) Hawken rifle at a museum and copied it exactly to come up with this rifle.  (emphasis added)
Anyone ever seen the original rifle? I haven't. It would be interesting to know if the original is actually like that or not.

In the late 1970's and into the 1980's, I was a distributor for Allen Firearms/Western Arms, who imported this rifle and also an entire line of revolvers.  As such, I had the opportunity to inspect and even shoot some of these rifles.  FWIW, I even gleaned one each of all their pistols (darn, wish I would have kept them) and one of the rifles.  The rifle was exactly as pictured.  Nothing had been cut off, I believe it had a 32" barrel.  However, it is possible that they did put a random length underrib on the rifle and cut an overlength barrel back to match.  I don't know, I have not been to the factory (darn, I'd sure like to go!).

It seems the tendency is that if the word Hawken is mentioned, it is now automatically assumed it is a model of rifle that T/C put out by the box car full.  Almost generic, so's to say.

Anyway, this rifle is an Uberti, not a T/C.

John
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Re: No crown
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2015, 02:09:00 PM »
John, John, John, silly ol' me  
I don't know where I came up with that T/C thing...:oops:

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