Post by: Winter Hawk on March 28, 2017, 10:32:57 PM
So is there any provenance on what was carried and where? Not in a wagon, but on a person so it was right at hand. I would imagine that some of the reenactors have knowledge to pass on to this pilgrim!
Thanks,
~WH~
Post by: amm1851 on March 29, 2017, 02:27:36 AM
Post by: Ohio Joe on March 29, 2017, 07:59:02 AM
I do agree with amm1851 that one knife (depending on just what you were doing for a living) would be enough.
With this said, IMHO, the knife you choose to carry on your person would have to be the one that can be used for dressing out game and cutting up meat as well as affording yourself with a fighting tool as a last ditch effort if an enemy was on you. It had to be an all around knife for everyday use.
Post by: amm1851 on March 29, 2017, 11:03:28 AM
As I said, a lot of things can happen to a knife, and if you lose your only blade for whatever reason, you could be in serious trouble if you're hundreds or thousands of miles from a source of resupply.
Post by: Ohio Joe on March 29, 2017, 11:45:52 AM
Post by: amm1851 on March 29, 2017, 12:36:43 PM
Post by: Bigsmoke on March 29, 2017, 01:03:58 PM
And I do agree that he would have backup knives in case of breakage or loss, probably carried in his supplies on a horse.
But that is mere supposition on my part, I claim no great knowledge on the subject.
John
Post by: amm1851 on March 29, 2017, 02:00:09 PM
We have pretty solid information about what sort of knives were brought to the Rockies in the rendezvous period based on the lists of goods that are available online in several places, including the AMM website. The vast majority were inexpensive butcher knives, imported by the tens of thousands from England, many marked GR, short for the Latin Georgius Rex, for King George, but which the mountain men took to mean Green River.
Nobody likes a pretty knife more than I do, but most of the knives carried by the mountain men were plain knives, meant to be used hard and replaced when worn out.
Post by: Bigsmoke on March 29, 2017, 02:50:25 PM
Do you mean to tell me that every single mountain man in the Rocky Mountains DID NOT carry a 14" blade Bowie Knife? :Doh! :Doh! :lol sign
OK, I'm gonna go snivel and cry, maybe go out in the yard and eat some worms.
John
Post by: amm1851 on March 29, 2017, 06:27:34 PM
Post by: Bigsmoke on March 29, 2017, 06:37:30 PM
(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii161/bigsmoke72/IMG_6531.jpg) (http://http)
And that something like this would not have probably been carried?
This day is just getting worse and worse by the minute.
John
Post by: amm1851 on March 29, 2017, 06:58:46 PM
Post by: Longhunter on March 29, 2017, 09:09:24 PM
(http://www.shrewbows.com/images/mountain-knife-2-web.jpg)
Post by: hawkthrower on March 29, 2017, 10:59:42 PM
My folder can be a patch knife but I generally carry pre-cut patches, pocket knife has its uses as well as a larger blade sheath knife. I even have a few "long knifes" for "extended reach" but I generally don't carry my katana, wakizashi, and tanto, or the rapier and main gauche much for adventures in the wild. ;)
Post by: amm1851 on March 30, 2017, 12:13:43 AM
Post by: Uncle Russ on March 31, 2017, 02:02:07 PM
I like 'em, and I really admire the little beaded sheaths that so often accompany these little jewels.
It just looks right, if ya know what I mean.
Still yet, John's question on how many knives and for what use is a very valid question.
IMO, that "Patch Knife" would have also served purposes from cutting cloth or thin leather patches at the muzzle, to a eating utensil, to skinning, peeling, repairing leather fittings, and cutting chew tabacca.
Other than the Patch Knife, my own thinking is about three other knives, ranging in size, length, and thickness, all for a specific use should the need ever arise.
Now, having said that, and keeping in mind that space and weight was of prime importance, this all goes for begging the question of what was really carried by the average Trapper or Hunter, or if there is such a thing as an "average" Trapper or Hunter?
The search for that answer has led to a rather large collection of knives on my part.
I would also like to hear from the more knowledgeable on this subject, as for myself, I seem to keep going in circles while changing my thoughts with the seasons.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Bigsmoke on March 31, 2017, 02:16:49 PM
Quote
I would also like to hear from the more knowledgeable on this subject, as for myself, I seem to keep going in circles while changing my thoughts with the seasons.
So, where does that lead you, Russ? Sounds like an endless pursuit of more and more knives. Personally, I see no harm in that. Quick, Russ, while the spirit leads you, better go get another one. I think you are hearing that knife that Ron pictured calling you. "Russ, oh Russ, you really want me. I sure do look pretty!! Oh, and my balance is just right!" Buy me, Russ, buy me!!"
John
Post by: amm1851 on March 31, 2017, 03:03:35 PM
Quote from: "bigsmoke"
QuoteI would also like to hear from the more knowledgeable on this subject, as for myself, I seem to keep going in circles while changing my thoughts with the seasons.
So, where does that lead you, Russ? Sounds like an endless pursuit of more and more knives. Personally, I see no harm in that. Quick, Russ, while the spirit leads you, better go get another one. I think you are hearing that knife that Ron pictured calling you. "Russ, oh Russ, you really want me. I sure do look pretty!! Oh, and my balance is just right!" Buy me, Russ, buy me!!"
John
I hear the same voice in my head, too!
Post by: Uncle Russ on March 31, 2017, 03:19:34 PM
Quote from: "amm1851"
Quote from: "bigsmoke"QuoteI would also like to hear from the more knowledgeable on this subject, as for myself, I seem to keep going in circles while changing my thoughts with the seasons.
So, where does that lead you, Russ? Sounds like an endless pursuit of more and more knives. Personally, I see no harm in that. Quick, Russ, while the spirit leads you, better go get another one. I think you are hearing that knife that Ron pictured calling you. "Russ, oh Russ, you really want me. I sure do look pretty!! Oh, and my balance is just right!" Buy me, Russ, buy me!!"
John
I hear the same voice in my head, too! :Doh! Yep, those dadburn voices!
The difference, make that the big difference, in us and that other bunch is the fact that we don't attend no stinkin meetings!
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Bigsmoke on March 31, 2017, 04:04:53 PM
Win-win!!
Now, go get another knife!!!
I can hear the voices in your head all the way down here.
John
Post by: Loyalist Dave on April 09, 2017, 09:13:48 AM
In Sons of a Trackless Forest, Baker notes that the "large butcher knives" were sold at £7.6.0. That's a pretty hefty sum, btw with the monthly wage for the hunters being on average about £4. There are some hunters shown in the ledgers of the trading post as having purchased such an expensive knife. There are others, however who bought knives for the cost of 5 shillings, including several entries where the individual bought two knives at the same time. These are the most popular knives as far as sales on concerned, but is that because they wear out quickly, are used in trade, or are the owners carrying more than one knife for different jobs, upon their person? Who knows?
The cost for a "butcher knife" (in contrast to a large, butcher knife) was £3.10.0.
There is a mention of a "cutteau knife" that appears to have cost a mere 3 shillings.
A razor cost 3 shillings, which are sold at least twice in the ledgers, but the question then is for shaving or some other cutting purpose?
I have found that a very large butcher knife, while probably a very good item in a hand-to-hand fight, is not so good for dressing, skinning, and butchering deer. I confess, that I am not dealing with animals the size of elk, and the bison are centuries gone from the East, so..., I might find a different result were I harvesting such large animals.
I have found that a 6" blade (which I wear on my hip) is quite sufficient for all of my camp chores, including butchering up a harvested deer. A small 3" knife works very well for dressing that deer, as it's a lot easier for me to wield that sharp little knife, "blind", inside the deer cavity when severing the internal connections for the organs at the throat, as well as for skinning that deer. Plus that little knife is good for cutting patches or for a very quick and crude knapping of the edge of my flint. So I carry two at hand, plus I carry an additional 3" knife in the pack, in case I lose the one I normally carry. Now at a historic site, when I am playing a person who might have to venture out to areas where I might meet an adversary while unloaded or while loading my rifle after dispatching one of a group of adversaries, I carry a very large knife. It's mostly for show though. So in that case I have three at hand, instead of my normal two.
LD
Post by: rollingb on April 09, 2017, 12:36:44 PM
Although 'these days" we have all kinds/styles/innovating designs of knives made of all sorts of steel and handle materials,... I have zero interest in knives that weren't available in 1840. A good carbon blade is a joy to sharpen, and holds an edge well.
Having said that,.... at one time (mid-70's) I went "weak in the knees" for the small neck knives finding their way into modern rendezvous and had to have one like many of my friends. Those little knives had blades made from laminated Norwegian Steel (something probably completely unheard of in 1840) and held an edge VERY WELL.
While elk hunting in the Gros Ventre Wilderness (north of Cora, WY), I left camp forgetting my GR butcher because I was in a hurry.
About a mile from camp I met a 400# "cinnamon" black bear walking the same game trail I was on.
Due to the bear's poor eyesight and the prevailing breeze, I seen him seconds before he seen me (as he was headed my way) at 15 yds.
One shot from my GPR .54 and the bear swapped ends and disappeared (up hill) in the trees. I quickly stepped behind a tree along the trail and reloaded, then stepped back onto the trail looking for the bear. I found his butt sticking out of a "blow-down" close to where I shot him and after "goosing" him in the butt with the muzzle of my rifle (to make sure he was dead), I managed to drag him out of the blow-down far enough to start skinning him.
That's when I discovered I had left my "Green River butcher" in camp,.... but I had my little "neck-knife" and went to skinning him. (did I mention those little laminated Norwegian Steel blades held an edge well?)
I managed to skin the bear's head, paws, and complete carcass out with that little 2 1/2" blade. :o
A couple years later (upon joining the AMM), it just didn't seem "right" to carry a blade made from that sort of "steel" so I gave the little knife to a friend, and have never forgotten my butcher when leaving camp again.
Post by: Ohio Joe on April 09, 2017, 06:09:40 PM
Post by: Winter Hawk on April 10, 2017, 09:56:53 PM
I once had two deer down on Prince of Wales Island and found the only knife I had with me was my Schrade trapper folding knife, and also no sharpening stone. I was able to clean, skin and bone them both out but it was getting pretty slow going towards the end! The carbon steel got a work out, for sure.
~WH~
Post by: rollingb on April 11, 2017, 12:12:01 AM
I'm going from memory here, which seems to be getting less reliable the older I get, but I seem to recall reading that laminated blades were being made back when the knights were riding around in tin suits on Belgians and Clydesdales. The blacksmith would pound out the blade, then fold it back on itself and do it again getting many laminations that way. The Japanese samurai swords were laminated in this way also. 30+ years ago there was an old sword smith who was still practicing the art of making them the old way. Think of an oriental Williamsburg!I don't know much about the different compositions of steel,.... but I was alway under the impression that "laminated" steel was made up of a layer of thin hard steel "core" sandwiched between 2 layers of softer steel. (IIRC a description like that was used to describe the norwegian laminated knife blades years ago in Track Of The Wolf's catalog.)
I once had two deer down on Prince of Wales Island and found the only knife I had with me was my Schrade trapper folding knife, and also no sharpening stone. I was able to clean, skin and bone them both out but it was getting pretty slow going towards the end! The carbon steel got a work out, for sure.
~WH~
How long that particular technique has been around, I have no idea.
It's always been my thought that steel "folded back on itself", hammered and folded again (repeatedly), was considered to be "Damascus" steel. (not to be confused with modern "etched" steel we often see in (some) replica knife blades made to "resemble" real Damascus)
Interesting topic! :bl th up
Post by: jmforge on April 11, 2017, 12:51:37 AM
Yes, one knife probably CAN do it all, but was that the custom?
In Sons of a Trackless Forest, Baker notes that the "large butcher knives" were sold at £7.6.0. That's a pretty hefty sum, btw with the monthly wage for the hunters being on average about £4. There are some hunters shown in the ledgers of the trading post as having purchased such an expensive knife. There are others, however who bought knives for the cost of 5 shillings, including several entries where the individual bought two knives at the same time. These are the most popular knives as far as sales on concerned, but is that because they wear out quickly, are used in trade, or are the owners carrying more than one knife for different jobs, upon their person? Who knows?
The cost for a "butcher knife" (in contrast to a large, butcher knife) was £3.10.0.
There is a mention of a "cutteau knife" that appears to have cost a mere 3 shillings.
A razor cost 3 shillings, which are sold at least twice in the ledgers, but the question then is for shaving or some other cutting purpose?
I have found that a very large butcher knife, while probably a very good item in a hand-to-hand fight, is not so good for dressing, skinning, and butchering deer. I confess, that I am not dealing with animals the size of elk, and the bison are centuries gone from the East, so..., I might find a different result were I harvesting such large animals.
I have found that a 6" blade (which I wear on my hip) is quite sufficient for all of my camp chores, including butchering up a harvested deer. A small 3" knife works very well for dressing that deer, as it's a lot easier for me to wield that sharp little knife, "blind", inside the deer cavity when severing the internal connections for the organs at the throat, as well as for skinning that deer. Plus that little knife is good for cutting patches or for a very quick and crude knapping of the edge of my flint. So I carry two at hand, plus I carry an additional 3" knife in the pack, in case I lose the one I normally carry. Now at a historic site, when I am playing a person who might have to venture out to areas where I might meet an adversary while unloaded or while loading my rifle after dispatching one of a group of adversaries, I carry a very large knife. It's mostly for show though. So in that case I have three at hand, instead of my normal two.
LD
Post by: jmforge on April 11, 2017, 01:05:15 AM
I'm going from memory here, which seems to be getting less reliable the older I get, but I seem to recall reading that laminated blades were being made back when the knights were riding around in tin suits on Belgians and Clydesdales. The blacksmith would pound out the blade, then fold it back on itself and do it again getting many laminations that way. The Japanese samurai swords were laminated in this way also. 30+ years ago there was an old sword smith who was still practicing the art of making them the old way. Think of an oriental Williamsburg!I don't know much about the different compositions of steel,.... but I was alway under the impression that "laminated" steel was made up of a layer of thin hard steel "core" sandwiched between 2 layers of softer steel. (IIRC a description like that was used to describe the norwegian laminated knife blades years ago in Track Of The Wolf's catalog.)
I once had two deer down on Prince of Wales Island and found the only knife I had with me was my Schrade trapper folding knife, and also no sharpening stone. I was able to clean, skin and bone them both out but it was getting pretty slow going towards the end! The carbon steel got a work out, for sure.
~WH~
How long that particular technique has been around, I have no idea.
It's always been my thought that steel "folded back on itself", hammered and folded again (repeatedly), was considered to be "Damascus" steel. (not to be confused with modern "etched" steel we often see in (some) replica knife blades made to "resemble" real Damascus)
Interesting topic! :bl th up
Post by: rollingb on April 11, 2017, 10:42:21 AM
"Real" damascus steel aka wootz, is a homogenous crucible steel that gets its pattern from a network of carbide dendrites, not from layering. It tends be VERY high carbon steel an it very tricky and SLOW to forge. Steel that is forged from multiple layers is pattern welded steel. Both are "etched' in some manner to show the pattern. 3 layer laminated blades are what the Japanese call "san mai". The Japanese bloomery steel is called tamahagane. The reason that you folded and forge welded is to purify it as it comes out of the bloomery furnace as a spongy looking mass with lots of impurities. Japanese swords are made from pieces of that "cleaned up steel" of varying carbon content. The more complex and expensive the sword,the more pieces were forged welded together. the surviving blades made in the late 13th and early 14ht Century by Goru Masamune, considered to be the greatest Japanese swordsmith ever, are made up of 7 separate small bars of steel of 3 different carbon contents. The simplest of Japanese nihonto are made from 2 pieces of steel, not 3. The hard steel is on the outside. It is forged to a shape kind of like a hot dog bun and the "hot dog" of lower carbon steel is inserted into teh "bun" and the whole thing is forged welded together. Older European blades wee pattern welded from multiple pieces of steel and iron. In the case of the Vikings, Franks and others, steel was rare and expensive, so it was used for the edge and the body was lower carbon iron. At some point, smiths figured out that they could also make pretty patterns. All of those steels are still made today, although the techniques for smelting wootz were only recently rediscovered, like in the last 30 years.Thanks for that info jmforge. :bow :shake :bl th up
Just a guess on my part,.... but your name leads me to think "maybe you're a blacksmith"?
Post by: Hanshi on April 11, 2017, 03:49:52 PM
Post by: RobD on April 11, 2017, 10:29:25 PM
Post by: Loyalist Dave on April 12, 2017, 04:26:42 AM
i cast a jaundiced eye at some of the modern thinking about the 18th and 19th century times...., weaponry was the best you could afford and/or make, ....,
I agree, but let's not forget about, find, eh? I think it's modern thinking for folks to disregard that one purchased the best one could afford that was available, which is not necessarily the same as what the buyer wanted, or the best that existed in that time period. We tend to look backward at the whole of the material culture and make the mistake of thinking X item (be it knife, or tool, or whatnot) was as easily obtained as it would be today, and that everybody had an equal number of options limited solely on price. Whatever tool a person had, may have been carried because that was the only size/shape of that tool for sale by the merchant when the buyer was buying. So there wasn't a choice made. The item was not the "preferred" version, but simply the available version. You bought the best you could find, which might be only one version of the item, or you went without.
So..., perhaps sometimes the question should be asked..., was the predominant design of anything the "best" out there, OR was it simply the one most produced, and thus being the most available did it default into the position of "most common"?
LD
Post by: RobD on April 12, 2017, 05:37:15 AM
i cast a jaundiced eye at some of the modern thinking about the 18th and 19th century times...., weaponry was the best you could afford and/or make, ....,
I agree, but let's not forget about, find, eh? I think it's modern thinking for folks to disregard that one purchased the best one could afford that was available, which is not necessarily the same as what the buyer wanted, or the best that existed in that time period. We tend to look backward at the whole of the material culture and make the mistake of thinking X item (be it knife, or tool, or whatnot) was as easily obtained as it would be today, and that everybody had an equal number of options limited solely on price. Whatever tool a person had, may have been carried because that was the only size/shape of that tool for sale by the merchant when the buyer was buying. So there wasn't a choice made. The item was not the "preferred" version, but simply the available version. You bought the best you could find, which might be only one version of the item, or you went without.
So..., perhaps sometimes the question should be asked..., was the predominant design of anything the "best" out there, OR was it simply the one most produced, and thus being the most available did it default into the position of "most common"?
LD
"find" - absolutely! as in the all-encompassing "acquire", of which there are many, many forms - some fairly nefarious.
Post by: jmforge on April 12, 2017, 12:12:14 PM
The advantage of the Japanese laminated katana was it was not prone to breakage as were the earlier, homogeneous steel swords. A real katana built by a skilled master is immensely expensive. Even a fine katana built by hand is as expensive as having a decent flinter built.Actually, the advantage is that you could have a tough blade that could also have a harder edge. The good news/bad news is that those swords would bend and take a set and the edge will chip. The reason that the ashi comes almost all the way to the edge is to prevent length wise propagation of cracks if you chip the edge. As for them being superior to the "homogeneous" blades made the Indian, Persian and Arab smiths, or some blades made by the Europeans, that is a topic for debate. Pretty much ALL quality swords were extremely expensive. As for the cost of a traditionally made sword using "homemade' steel, Dragonfly Forge here in the US charges between $16 and 20K for a polished blade and even the ones made in China in the "traditional" manner can easily exceed $5000.
Post by: jmforge on April 12, 2017, 12:13:13 PM
"Real" damascus steel aka wootz, is a homogenous crucible steel that gets its pattern from a network of carbide dendrites, not from layering. It tends be VERY high carbon steel an it very tricky and SLOW to forge. Steel that is forged from multiple layers is pattern welded steel. Both are "etched' in some manner to show the pattern. 3 layer laminated blades are what the Japanese call "san mai". The Japanese bloomery steel is called tamahagane. The reason that you folded and forge welded is to purify it as it comes out of the bloomery furnace as a spongy looking mass with lots of impurities. Japanese swords are made from pieces of that "cleaned up steel" of varying carbon content. The more complex and expensive the sword,the more pieces were forged welded together. the surviving blades made in the late 13th and early 14ht Century by Goru Masamune, considered to be the greatest Japanese swordsmith ever, are made up of 7 separate small bars of steel of 3 different carbon contents. The simplest of Japanese nihonto are made from 2 pieces of steel, not 3. The hard steel is on the outside. It is forged to a shape kind of like a hot dog bun and the "hot dog" of lower carbon steel is inserted into teh "bun" and the whole thing is forged welded together. Older European blades wee pattern welded from multiple pieces of steel and iron. In the case of the Vikings, Franks and others, steel was rare and expensive, so it was used for the edge and the body was lower carbon iron. At some point, smiths figured out that they could also make pretty patterns. All of those steels are still made today, although the techniques for smelting wootz were only recently rediscovered, like in the last 30 years.Thanks for that info jmforge. :bow :shake :bl th up
Just a guess on my part,.... but your name leads me to think "maybe you're a blacksmith"?
Post by: AxelP on April 19, 2017, 05:32:06 PM
When I am out in the woods in modern gear I carry one knife-- yep the small folder.
I have read where soldiers often start out with all kinds of gear including big knives... but after weeks of marching, the useless bulky stuff is often thrown away. Which knife is more likely to be discarded? The big one or the small folder?
K
Post by: Loyalist Dave on April 20, 2017, 08:17:04 AM
LD
Post by: Uncle Russ on April 20, 2017, 01:16:36 PM
Quote from: Loyalist Dave
I think there is a better chance of a hunter having a long knife than for the hunter to be carrying a medium sized kettle.Now there is a observation that I can agree with whole heartily.
Interesting thread, you guys keep "layin-it-on", reading is the one pleasure that seems unaffected by health and old age.
:hairy
Uncle Russ..
Post by: Loyalist Dave on April 21, 2017, 07:51:18 AM
:o AND I also remember hiking in the woods in Virginia during a full equipment exercise when in the Corps, and the first rainy/foggy night you could hear the soft but continuous sounds of items of unneeded gear being tossed into the woods. Funny how after 20 miles an infantryman becomes a pretty good judge of what is needed, and what is not.
LD
Post by: AxelP on April 21, 2017, 02:45:18 PM
The Soldier, Militia, Scout, Hunter, Fur Trapper, Camp Helper, Farmer, Settler, Townsmen would have different reasons for carrying different size blades--not always based on practicality--sometimes vanity and what was "cool" took precedence--just like today.
From practical experience, there is very little my small folder cannot do. I don't use a blade for chopping wood, thats silly-- have an ax for that job. My folder processes the game I shoot as good or better than my larger knife. The only significant thing my smaller knife does not do as well as a big knife would be "fight." But since I have a belt axe, and a nice set of mocs for running... How many of the old dead guys were truly skilled at fighting with a knife?
I'd say that what was really carried was incredibly varied.
Post by: Winter Hawk on April 21, 2017, 10:09:23 PM
The point is that a folding knife did the job, marginally. A butcher knife might have saved the hunter a lot of trauma! Or not. You use what you have on hand in those situations.
~WH~
Post by: rollingb on April 22, 2017, 01:18:49 AM
I'm sure many fur trappers replaced their personal knives that were either, lost, stolen, broken, and etc., from the traders offering such items at rendezvous.
I hope you find the following as interesting as I do.
The Manifest of Jedediah Smith's Trade Goods.
The following is a partial list of the 1831 chests of goods that arrived,...
Chest No. 1
1 dozen small saws
8 large saws
2 dozen chisels
2 gross small augers
6 dozen panes of window glass
2 dozen scutcheons
2 dozen brass nails for curtains
10 gross small screws
6 packages iron tacks
2 dozen pen knives
1 dozen pocket razors
3 dozen pen knives
3 dozen pocket knives
1 dozen shaving razors
3 dozen shaving razors
2 dozen butcher knives
4 dozen table knives
7 dozen table knives
3 dozen butcher knives
4 dozen butcher knives
3 dozen butcher knives
2 dozen green razor handles
3 dozen white razor handles
2 dozen pocket razors
2 gross thimbles
2,000 needles
130 large needles
1 dozen scissors
3 3/4 dozen scissors
2 gross small spoons
7 small augers
8 large augers
3 dozen bone buttons
4 gross marble buttons
2 gross glass buttons
1 gross shell buttons
1 gross coat buttons
2 gross waistcoat buttons
1 dozen small files
1 dozen large files
1 dozen large files, half hollowed
1 dozen rasps
3 dozen large scutcheons
3 dozens small scutcheons
Chest No. 2:
2 dozen small saws
1 dozen large chisels
1 dozen small chisels
2 gross small augers
2 dozen brass nails, 6 inches
1 dozen brass nails, 3 inches
1/2 dozen brass nails, 3 1/2 inches
1 dozen carbine keys
8 gross small screws
2 packages iron tacks
4 packages iron tacks
1 dozen table knives
14 dozen butcher knives
12 dozen pocket razors
6 dozen knives and forks
4 dozen pen knives
2 gross thimbles
2 1/2 thousand needles
12 thousand large needles
1 dozen scissors
4 gross small spoons
1/2 gross table spoons
20 large augers
3 dozen bone buttons
5 gross marble buttons
2 dozen glass buttons
1 dozen shell buttons
1 dozen shell buttons for shirt
1 dozen yellow buttons
1 dozen common buttons
1 dozen buttons for waistcoat
1 dozen small files
2 dozen large files
1 dozen rasps, half hollowed
6 dozen large scutcheons
4 dozen trunk scutcheons
Invoice of merchandise shipped on board S.B. Diana C.M. Halstead Master bound for the upper Missouri River and consigned for account and risk of upper Missouri outfit 1835 under mark in the margin
Here is a partial list of trade goods that arrived in 1835,......
30 pr 3pt Scarlet blankets
30 pr 3pt green blankets
58 pr 3pt white blankets
93 pr 3pt white blankets
30 pr 3 1/2pt Com. white blankets
46 pr 2 1/2pt best white blankets
40 pr 2 1/2pt best white blankets
64 pr blankets
1 wrapper
15 1 1/2 PB blankets
5 1 PB blanket
1 ps white flannel
4 table covers blue
4 ps salempin [?]
2 ps black silk hankerchiefs
2 ps cotton flag hankerchiefs
20 ribbons assorted colors
1 blue frock coat
5 green of olive coat
40 scarlet chiefs coats
50 Red flannel shirts
1/2 doz. Ladies Moroco heel pumps
1/2 doz. Ladies Walking Shoes
12 pr mens Kip Brogans
12 pr mens thick Brogans
2 dz fine Ivory Combs
1 dz. dressing combs
48 Crambo Combs
24 Crambo Combs
19 1/2 @ Sturgeon Twine
3 bundles Fish Lines
1 dz. Ladies Cotton Stockings
3 setts Silver Gorgets
32 setts large Wampum moons
18 setts large Wampum moons
1 ream (first ?) Lined fools cap paper
1 ream plane fools cap paper
8 blank books
9 1 1/2 Quire blank books
2/12 dz. red ink powder
5/12 dz. sealing wax
1/2 M white chapel needles
12 dz bright oval fire steels
1 dz boxes oval fire steels
1/2 dz. best pad locks
2 dz assorted Gimblets
4 dz beaver trap chains
1 dz Flat Bastard files 14"
2 dz Flat Bastard files 12"
1 dz. 1/2 round bastard files 10"
1 dz. 1/2 round bastard files 14"
1 dz. 1/2 round bastard files 8"
2 dz. Flat bastard files 10"
3 dz. Flat bastard files 8"
9 dz. Flat bastard files 6 & 7"
10 dz. Pitsaw files
1 dz. rat tail files 7"
1 dz. rat tail files 5 1/2"
1 dz Wood Rasps Files 10"
50 dz. Wilson Butcher Knives #2634
50 dz. Wilson Butcher Knives 7 in.
47 Gro orange coat buttons
54 Gro finger rings
10 Gro Indian Awls
415 lb. Chalk white pound beads
50 lb. Brass wire No. 6
50 lb. Iron wire No. 15
60 Battle Axes
3 cases of Vermillion
92 @ Verdegris
20 lb. open brass kettles
10 nests sheet Iron kettles
5 1/4 dz. cover tin kettles
6 dz covered tin kettles
4 boxes Y.H. tea
5 loaves ( ? ) sugar
2 bags shot
50 powder horns
20 brass mounted swords
2 boxes shaving soap
4 boxes com soap
1 barrel rice
1 coil manillia rope
4 bales oakum
2 barrels water crackers
2 barrels each navy pilot bread
1/2 barrels molasses Keg 50 15 gls
5 dz. wooden bowls 16 each bowl
4 lbs. (spelter?) solder
2 bags shot
1 hlf barrel mackreal
? bottle pepper sauce
2 boxes rasins
2 boxes cod fish
2 dz thimbles box 25
1 dz ( ? ) plates
1 large blue cup & saucer 2 setts
1 Lexington mustard
2 lb refined borax
1/2 dz. lime juice
2 oz nut megs
2 oz cloves
1/4 oz. ( ? )
1/2 dz. ground ginger
1 gal blue grass seed
2 dz sudlitz powders
4 dz Lucifer matches
boxes --
7 kegs 6 twist to pound tobacco
2 kegs 2 twist to pound tobacco
1 keg 1 twist to pound tobacco
5 kegs 8 twist to pound tobacco
7 boxes brown havana sugar
2 faggots 13 bars rolld iron
18 bars assorted iron
5 sacks Grod Al Salt
1 barrel rosin
3 kegs pitch
1 box cavandish tobacco
10 barrel pork
6 bags coffee
1 barrel bacon hams
1 book for mens acct.
40 barrels flour
11 bales cloth
3 boxes at 100 and 6 box at 50
4 boxes at 25
2 boxes from Andrew & Burd
2 casks from Andrew & Burd
3 casks from Andrew & Burd
Invoice of Sundry Merchandise from the Rocky Mountain Outfit 1836
under charge of Fontenelle, Fitzpatrick, & Co.
31 Pair 3 Point Scarlet Blanket
31 3 " Green Do.
4 3 " Light Blue "
120 3 " White "
12 2 1/2 "
2 2 1/2 "
42 2 1/2 "
25 1 1/2 "
25 1 "
1 ps Fancy List Blue Cloth Sapen
1 " " " " "
16 Savd List Blue Cloth
3 Grey " " "
3 Black " Scarlet "
1 Savd. " " "
3 " " " "
1 " " " "
3 " " Green "
3 Red Molton
2 Cadet max Sattinette
1 Blue " "
1 Check
1 Scarlet Flannel
1 " "
1 Yellow "
1 White "
1 Domestic Stripe
2 " "
1 Salampon
2 Blue Mowmac Calico
2 White Ground "
3 Red " "
1 4/4 Yellow "
6 Fancy "
4 Watules Shawls
4 ps 6/4 Cotton " 40 shawls
2 " " 21 shawls
2 " " 25 shawls
2 " Blk Silk Handkffs
3 " "
1 ps Black Silk Handkff
2 " India "
1 " Pongie " "
1 Canton Flag "
2 " Dunagen
2 " Cotton "
4 " Turkey Red "
1 " Burlap 100 yds
12 County woolen socks
2 lbs White Cotton Thread
3 " " Stitching "
2 " dark blue "
1 " Red "
12 " all col'd "
20 Cloth Capots Blue & Grey
57 Blanket " Col'd
6 " White " "
3 " " "
58 prs Sattinet Pantaloons
12 " " "
10 " linsey "
22 " Corderoy "
8 " Fusteau "
10 " Mix Cloth "
3 " dark Sattinet "
20 " Cadet " Mix'd
4 " Brown Capemeu "
7 " Steel mix "
12 " dark blue " 19pr pant
6 " Supr Blue Cloth
35 " assrt Sattinet
12 Steam loom Cotton Shirt
236 Red flannel shirts
157 Calico "
81 Domestic Plaid "
129 Check "
7 Pink "
7/12 dz Round White wool hats
1 1/2 " " Black " "
2 " " " " "
2 " " White " "
1 1/2 dz Red Cock Feathers
1 " " Wool Caps
1 7 quire ledger
1 6 " Do.
6 1 " Blank Books
1/4 ream Rul'd Cap Paper
1/4 " Plain "
5 1/2 Quires letter "
1/2 @ Quills
2 dz Buck handle Knives large
12 dz Green bone "
100 dz Scalping " " normal
50 dz cast steel Butcher Knife
2 1/6 " Shop Scissors
1 " Women's "
1 set Each Mortice & Fromer chipits
4 # Fish Hooks
1 1/3 dz " Lines
5/12 " Fire Steel Boxes
2 Gro Gun Worms
4 11/12 dz fire steels
10 Gro Indian awls
7 dz Handsaw files fine
1 1/3 " Small bastard "
4 " 7 in " flat
1/3 " 9 " " "
2 1/4 " Pitsan
11/12 " 10 in Polishing
1/3 " Each 9 and 10 In Half Round files
1/2 " Rattail Files
5/12 " 7 in flat Rasps
1 11/12 " Wood Do.
10 Gro Finger Rings
2 " Wood Screws
1 Quire Sand Paper
6 Screw Augers 28
160 dz dark Blue Cut Glass beads
50 " White "
24 " Brown "
13 " Amber " 87 doz cut glass beads
10 " Light blue "
40 Yellow "
60 " Green " 110dos do. do.
125 Bunches Blue Snake Beads
75 " Amber & green " " 200 snake beads
25 " Mock Garnets
60 " Seed Beads assorted
127 @ White pound
50 " Blue "
50 " Black "
30 Bunches White Barley Corn
24 " " Agate Beads
24 " Blue " "
2 m Gun Flints
1/2 " Rifle "
43 @ Rope
2 dz Gun locks
1/2 " Rifle "
24 dz Paper covd Looking Glasses
1 pair Match planes
1 Each for 162 Jack 100 and Smoothing Plane 100
1 3/4 dz Green Goggles
100 papers Hawk Bells
2 pair Salters
7 1/2 dz Snaffle Bridles
9 " Curb "
100 pr. Stirrup Leather
200 Leather Sursingles
1 dz martingales
3 Cards Spurs
12 dz Chinese Combs Boxes
6 " Crambo "
4 " Ivory "
12 dragon Swords
4 pairs Pistols Iron
2 Am Rifle
7 "
8 Hawkin "
84 N. W. Guns
3 1/6 dz Small Am Axes
150 Half Axes
50 Round Head Tomahawks
10 American Felling Axes
152 pair Mule and horse shoes
74 @ Nails for the above shoes
16 dz Lucifer Matches
5 @ Crude Borax 28lb Cochineal
1 Gallon Copal Varnish ?
8 Leather lodges
20 Powder bags
3 setts Wampum moons
15 nests sheet iron kettles
5 " Cov'd tin do.
12 dz Tin Pans
2 bags Shot
12 kegs Small Bar lead
32 cannisters Powder F
15 " " .456F
12 half bbls. " .600F Dupont
89 2/3 @ Vermillion
41 " Cavandish Tobacco
50 Boxes Blk Pepper
16 Y. H. Tea
6 Bushels Dried Apples
1 Barrel Peaches
4 " Flour
2 Rice
6 Bags Coffee
8 Boxes Rasins
12 Bro Hava Sugar
3 White Havana Sugar
35 Calico Shirts
64 Red Flannel "
36 Sets mule Harness
30 N. W. Guns
5 Bales Cloth Cords
16 Boxes 100 13 boxes .75
9 Gun Cases
3 Casks .25 and 2 Bags .25
Drayage
4 Quire Blank Books
6 Bank Books
1/2 @ Quills
1/10 Ream Rild Foolscap paper
1/2 Quire Folio pad
2 Rifles Hawkin
1 Coil Bed Cords
25 Calico Shirts
10 Boxes Percussion Caps
7 Masonic Swords
4 @ Red Thread
6 " Stitching Thread
1/2 dz Gun & Rifle locks
7 metal framed Looking Glasses
8500 White Wampum
5450 gross Blk "
40 Wampum Hairpipes
2 Setts " wampum moons
9 India Rubber Canteens
6 Pocket Compass
4 Gro Brass Finger Rings
13 skins silk
4 papers Polishd Horse Bells
2 Cards Spurs
3 prs 4 pt. Com. Blankets
1 " Red Striped
15 Bunches Ea. Blue White Agate Beads
32 " White Barley Corn
80 Powder Horns
2 Barrels Water Crackers
2 Rifles Hawkens
28 Iron Bound Canteen
520 Galls Alcohol
1 waggon complete
19 boxes Tobacco
1 keg "
Invoice of Sundry Merchandise furnished Rocky Mountain Outfit 1837 under charge of Fontenelle, Fitzpatrick & Co.
......, and a partial list of the goods that went west in 1837
" 30 Blue Blanket Capots 8.00 240.00
" 41 Green Blanket Capots $7.00 $287.000
" 6 dz Woolen Half Hose $3.25 $19.500
" 2 dz Black wool hats $7.50 $15.000
" 1 1/4dz White wool hats $9.00 $11.250
" 1 ps Scarlet Melton[?] 60/8 3 8
" 1 " White " 54/6 2 14 6
" 2 " Cotton Check 73 3/4 yds $0.15 $11.060
" 50 papers Hawk Bells $0.375 $18.750
" 7 doz Crambo Combs $0.56 $3.920
" 3 doz Crambo Combs $0.25 $0.750
" 2 Fine Ivory Tooth Combs $1.25 $2.500
" 10 Paper Covered Looking Glass $0.25 $2.500
" 10 lb all Colours Thread 2/2 1 1 8
" 100 " White Pound Beads $0.35 $35.000
" 25 " Blue Pound Beads $0.35 $8.750
" 25 " Black Pound Beads $0.30 $7.500
" 15 " Assorted Colors Pound Beads $0.30 $4.500
" 11 1/2" Carnelian fine Beads $1.00 $11.500
" 100 doz Snake Beads 3/4 60 blue green 40 $0.20 $20.000
" 190 doz assorted color cut glass beads $0.25 $47.500
" 10 BunchesMock Garnets $0.60 $6.000
" 48 " Sead Beads $0.25 $12.000
" 5 Gro. Indian Awls 3/3 16 3
" 2 " Gun Worms 1/11 3 10
" 3 " Orange Coat Buttons $1.625 $4.880
" 2 doz Shop Scissors $2.00 $4.000
" 1 doz Woman's Scissors $1.75 $1.750
" 84 doz W. Scalping Knives 4/10 20 6
" 17 doz Wilson's Butcher Knives 3/10 3 5 2
" 10 doz W. Cartouche knives 3/2 1 11 8
" 6 doz W. Cartouche knives $1.375 $8.250
" 6 doz Green Bone hand'l knives 5/7 1 13 6
" 1 doz Handsaw Files $1.06 $1.060
" 1 doz Cross Cut Saw Files $1.13 $1.130
" 1 doz 8 in half round files $1.50 $1.500
" 1 doz 6 in flat files $1.13 $1.130
" 1/2doz 12 in half round files $3.50 $1.750
" 2 m Gun Flints 8/4 16 8
" 3 m Rifle Flints 8/ 1 4
" 1/2doz Goggles $7.00 $3.500
" 400 Fish Hooks $0.50 $2.000
" 3 Bundles Lines
Post by: amm1851 on April 22, 2017, 01:44:45 AM
Post by: Roaddog on April 22, 2017, 09:04:34 AM
Post by: Winter Hawk on April 22, 2017, 09:46:57 PM
The lists tell it all.That was a real eyeopener and I thank you Rollingb.
:bl th up :bl th up :bl th up
~WH~
Post by: waksupi on April 29, 2017, 06:51:40 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/waksupi/DSCF0001_zpsco3la3g3.jpg
These are some early style knives I make. There are a couple more modern styles in here, but the pocket knives are of 18-19th century designs.
Post by: rollingb on April 29, 2017, 08:34:01 PM
Post by: Winter Hawk on April 29, 2017, 09:51:29 PM
~WH~
Post by: Uncle Russ on September 20, 2017, 02:40:10 AM
In Hanson's book he stated "The only difference in the earlier to the later 1800s knives was that the nose got broader; otherwise they were the same width as the handle".
That got me to thinking....is this somehow NOT the reason the Green River knives became so popular?
GR knife blades run about "the size of the handle" for approx. 3/4 of the total length, then they get broader...a proven design when slicing meat.....
BTW; Finally got me a 'roundtoit' and got my 12' GR Butcher finished, complete with sheath.
Now I want a smaller one.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: rollingb on September 20, 2017, 12:37:03 PM
Rondo, this is an old post and I wanted to bring it back up with a question.It may have been Russ,.... although I see little difference in the "nose design" of the Green River butchers during the time they were made.
In Hanson's book he stated "The only difference in the earlier to the later 1800s knives was that the nose got broader; otherwise they were the same width as the handle".
That got me to thinking....is this somehow NOT the reason the Green River knives became so popular?
GR knife blades run about "the size of the handle" for approx. 3/4 of the total length, then they get broader...a proven design when slicing meat.....
BTW; Finally got me a 'roundtoit' and got my 12' GR Butcher finished, complete with sheath.
Now I want a smaller one.
Uncle Russ...
Tangs,.... yes, as the "early" Green River butchers had tapered tangs.
Handles,... yes, as the earlier Green River butchers had their grips attached with (5) "pins" rather than the later (3) "rivets".
One thing that we must bear in mind about Hanson's information is,.... he's talking about "butchers" of the fur trade in general, and not all makers of "butchers" had exactly the same blade design.
There were more than a few companies in England that tried to capitalize on the (J. Russell & Co. of Greenfield Mass.) "Green River" name/reputation.
For a time even I. Wilson (one of the more famous makers of "butcher" knives) in Sheffield England, stamped "Green River" on their blades to better compete with the american company during the fur trade era.
I suppose,.... as far as "butcher blade designs" of the 1830's-1840's goes, it could be argued that the J. Russell company in Mass. actually copied (closely) the blade designs of the older companies in England who had been making "butcher" knives since the 1700's. ;)
..... and Russ, we need to see some pictures of your GR butcher and sheath. :bl th up
I find butchers in the 7"-8" blade lengths handy for skinnin' AND butcherin' (if that is of any help to ya). :shake :*:
Post by: rollingb on September 20, 2017, 01:02:33 PM
I remember reading a book about Dan'l Boone, back when I was in about 4th grade, and it described cutting the patch at the muzzle and carrying a special patch knife for this. Over the years since then I have read of the various woodsmen (longhunters, plainsmen, mountain men, etc.) carrying hunting knives, butcher knives, fighting knives, patch knives, scalping knives, barlow (pocket) knives and I don't know what else. It seems to me that, wandering the wilderness, a person would have the minimum of gear. So if one knife will work for all the cutting chores, that is what one would carry, probably a medium sized butcher knife with which to dress out game, cut patches, stab the infidels etc.In the memoires of W. A. Ferris during his time in as an employee of the American Fur Company (1830-1835) he states,.... "When Gray reached his own lodge, his mangled frozen feet were examined; they were swollen to twice their natural size, and were quite black; however, at the expiration of two months, he was quite well, and the circumstances of his so narrow escape almost forgotten. He left his powder horn, shot‑pouch, belt, and knife at the field of death, which will account for his want of success, when endeavoring to kindle a fire; and for being compelled to construct his raft with a pen knife, which is a rare instrument in this country, because it is useless, save in such a peculiar case."
So is there any provenance on what was carried and where? Not in a wagon, but on a person so it was right at hand. I would imagine that some of the reenactors have knowledge to pass on to this pilgrim!
Thanks,
~WH~
Post by: Uncle Russ on September 20, 2017, 02:49:06 PM
Quote from: rollingb
..... and Russ, we need to see some pictures of your GR butcher and sheath.
Well here are a couple of pictures....going back to when I started.
I had several choices of scales, and I started with the "dark bone" (the one on the left), which was a mistake, after I drilled them and was putting the brads in, I tapped the last brad just a wee bit too hard and I broke both sides of those scale! :Doh!
But actually, that was okay with me, because once I had a couple of brads in and hefted the knife I realized they were far too heavy and really put the knife off balance...but I thought what the heck, they look good and I'll go with it...then, after I broke 'em I was almost relieved... :P
(https://i.imgur.com/xvA6CV0.jpg)
Then I choose the nice Walnut, which was about 1/4 the weight of the bone scales, and the balance of the knife is, IMO, just about as good as it gets for actually working with a knife.
There was a time, and even on some knives I have today, where I actually preferred a little weight in the handle....but not with a working blade as long as the GR Butcher!
Here is the finished knife and sheath....I screwed-up on the sheath, a couple of times, and I have full intentions of redoing a sheath sometime down the road, but the knife itself turned out as well as I had expected. I believe this is a very "useable" knife as it feels right in the hand.
For a "big" knife I feel I can keep control of that blade fairly well.
(https://i.imgur.com/p0BG4Hk.jpg)
Here is a picture of that knife and my all time favorite knives for working when hunting.
The top one is a small, and very handy, knife made by Marbles...it's a old knife that I have used as a patch knife, a skinning knife, and a flat out eating knife. Like me, it has been around a while.
The second one down is a Puma...although old enough to vote twice over it keeps right on tickin', and holds an edge like no other knife I have ever owned....I have actually been guilty of using a rock to beat on the blade when bustin' an Elk pelvic while quartering out an Elk in the Idaho Bitterroot Mountains...but Elk hunting is a young man's game, and I have likely made my last hunt in the high country.
(https://i.imgur.com/npMjSx7.jpg)
Uncle Russ...
Post by: rollingb on September 20, 2017, 04:07:12 PM
When you mentioned your Puma "holds an edge like no other",.... the thought of an old "Taylor's" skinnin' knife popped into my mind.
On page 112 of "The Skinning Knife" by M. H. Cole, he shows a picture of a Taylor's skinner that has it's blade sharpened away clear up to it's spine, by a stockman in New Zealand,.... along with the picture, it states,.... It came with the information that the knife had skinned a total of 50,234 Sheep, Lambs, Calves, Cattle, and Pigs.
This important testimony means the knife only cost a very small fraction per animal. The stockman also stated "it's still good for skinning a few hundred more". :laffing :bl th up
Post by: Winter Hawk on September 20, 2017, 06:47:18 PM
I had a Marble's knife for a while, not sure of the model. It was given to me at a time when I didn't have a knife and was on a communications site in the Alaska bush. It had been used to cut roofing and was a mess with tar all over. It cleaned up nice though, but I didn't really know what I had and ended up giving it away years later. Then I found out that real Marble's knives were collector's items.... :Doh! I just ordered a look-alike with Damascus steel blade. We'll see how that is, it has a 90 day return period if I'm not ecstatic about it so I'd only be out the shipping if I don't like it.
~WH~
Post by: PetahW on September 21, 2017, 09:15:31 AM
It appears that a butcher knife was the hands-down winner, for the most commonly carried/used wilderness knife of the early 1800's.
It likewise appears that smaller pocket & table/eating knives predominated in the more settled/civilized areas of the same time, with butcher knives relegated to the workplaces of kitchens & slaughterhouses.
Today, I would carry a hobo knife in my pocket, and a "camp knife" or medium-sized bowie on my belt or pack.
(https://i.imgur.com/10uOCDim.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/CG060VUl.jpg)
.
Post by: rollingb on September 24, 2017, 11:07:44 PM
The brass slabs can be used as a ball-starter on tight loads. :bl th up
(http://tradmla.org/tmaf/gallery/254_24_09_17_10_48_22.jpeg)
(http://tradmla.org/tmaf/gallery/254_24_09_17_10_41_52.jpeg)
Post by: Two Steps on September 25, 2017, 12:53:45 PM
Al
Post by: rollingb on September 25, 2017, 08:00:47 PM
Post by: Winter Hawk on October 05, 2017, 04:43:39 PM
~WH~