What knives were really carried?

[Uncle Russ]

I suspect I am a certified knifeaholic, and I have always wondered about that "Patch Knife".

I like 'em, and I really admire the little beaded sheaths that so often accompany these little jewels.
It just looks right, if ya know what I mean.

Still yet, John's question on how many knives and for what use is a very valid question.

IMO, that "Patch Knife" would have also served purposes from cutting cloth or thin leather patches at the muzzle, to a eating utensil, to skinning, peeling, repairing leather fittings, and cutting chew tabacca.

Other than the Patch Knife, my own thinking is about three other knives, ranging in size, length, and thickness, all for a specific use should the need ever arise.
Now, having said that, and keeping in mind that space and weight was of prime importance, this all goes for begging the question of what was really carried by the average Trapper or Hunter, or if there is such a thing as an "average" Trapper or Hunter?

The search for that answer has led to a rather large collection of knives on my part.

I would also like to hear from the more knowledgeable on this subject, as for myself, I seem to keep going in circles while changing my thoughts with the seasons.

Uncle Russ...

[Bigsmoke]

I would also like to hear from the more knowledgeable on this subject, as for myself, I seem to keep going in circles while changing my thoughts with the seasons.

So, where does that lead you, Russ?  Sounds like an endless pursuit of more and more knives.  Personally, I see no harm in that.  Quick, Russ, while the spirit leads you, better go get another one.  I think you are hearing that knife that Ron pictured calling you.  "Russ, oh Russ, you really want me.  I sure do look pretty!!  Oh, and my balance is just right!"  Buy me, Russ, buy me!!"  

John

[amm1851]

I would also like to hear from the more knowledgeable on this subject, as for myself, I seem to keep going in circles while changing my thoughts with the seasons.

So, where does that lead you, Russ?  Sounds like an endless pursuit of more and more knives.  Personally, I see no harm in that.  Quick, Russ, while the spirit leads you, better go get another one.  I think you are hearing that knife that Ron pictured calling you.  "Russ, oh Russ, you really want me.  I sure do look pretty!!  Oh, and my balance is just right!"  Buy me, Russ, buy me!!"  

John

I hear the same voice in my head, too!  

[Uncle Russ]

I would also like to hear from the more knowledgeable on this subject, as for myself, I seem to keep going in circles while changing my thoughts with the seasons.

So, where does that lead you, Russ?  Sounds like an endless pursuit of more and more knives.  Personally, I see no harm in that.  Quick, Russ, while the spirit leads you, better go get another one.  I think you are hearing that knife that Ron pictured calling you.  "Russ, oh Russ, you really want me.  I sure do look pretty!!  Oh, and my balance is just right!"  Buy me, Russ, buy me!!"  

John

I hear the same voice in my head, too!     Yep, those dadburn voices!
The difference, make that the big difference, in us and that other bunch is the fact that we don't attend no stinkin meetings!

Uncle Russ...

[Bigsmoke]

And not attending no stinking meetings means you have a lot more time to shop for more knives.

Win-win!!

Now, go get another knife!!!

I can hear the voices in your head all the way down here.

John

[Loyalist Dave]

Yes, one knife probably CAN do it all, but was that the custom? 

In Sons of a Trackless Forest, Baker notes that the "large butcher knives" were sold at £7.6.0.  That's a pretty hefty sum, btw with the monthly wage for the hunters being on average about £4.  There are some hunters shown in the ledgers of the trading post as having purchased such an expensive knife.  There are others, however who bought knives for the cost of 5 shillings, including several entries where the individual bought two knives at the same time.  These are the most popular knives as far as sales on concerned, but is that because they wear out quickly, are used in trade, or are the owners carrying more than one knife for different jobs, upon their person?  Who knows?

The cost for a "butcher knife" (in contrast to a large, butcher knife) was £3.10.0. 
There is a mention of a "cutteau knife" that appears to have cost a mere 3 shillings.
A razor cost 3 shillings, which are sold at least twice in the ledgers, but the question then is for shaving or some other cutting purpose?

I have found that a very large butcher knife, while probably a very good item in a hand-to-hand fight, is not so good for dressing, skinning, and butchering deer.  I confess, that I am not dealing with animals the size of elk, and the bison are centuries gone from the East, so..., I might find a different result were I harvesting such large animals.

I have found that a 6" blade (which I wear on my hip) is quite sufficient for all of my camp chores, including butchering up a harvested deer.  A small 3" knife works very well  for dressing that deer, as it's a lot easier for me to wield that sharp little knife, "blind", inside the deer cavity when severing the internal connections for the organs at the throat, as well as  for skinning that deer.  Plus that little knife is good for cutting patches or for a very quick and crude knapping of the edge of my flint.  So I carry two at hand, plus I carry an additional 3" knife in the pack, in case I lose the one I normally carry.  Now at a historic site, when I am playing a person who might have to venture out to areas where I might meet an adversary while unloaded or while loading my rifle after dispatching one of a group of adversaries, I carry a very large knife.  It's mostly for show though.  So in that case I have three at hand, instead of my normal two.

LD 

[rollingb]

As a fur trade era re-enactor, my knife of choice is the "butcher",... listed in numerous invoices of trade goods that made their way to "rendezvous".
Although 'these days" we have all kinds/styles/innovating designs of knives made of all sorts of steel and handle materials,... I have zero interest in knives that weren't available in 1840. A good carbon blade is a joy to sharpen, and holds an edge well.

Having said that,.... at one time (mid-70's) I went "weak in the knees" for the small neck knives finding their way into modern rendezvous and had to have one like many of my friends. Those little knives had blades made from laminated Norwegian Steel (something probably completely unheard of in 1840) and held an edge VERY WELL.
While elk hunting in the Gros Ventre Wilderness (north of Cora, WY), I left camp forgetting my GR butcher because I was in a hurry.
About a mile from camp I met a 400# "cinnamon" black bear walking the same game trail I was on.
Due to the bear's poor eyesight and the prevailing breeze, I seen him seconds before he seen me (as he was headed my way) at 15 yds.
One shot from my GPR .54 and the bear swapped ends and disappeared (up hill) in the trees. I quickly stepped behind a tree along the trail and reloaded, then stepped back onto the trail looking for the bear. I found his butt sticking out of a "blow-down" close to where I shot him and after "goosing" him in the butt with the muzzle of my rifle (to make sure he was dead), I managed to drag him out of the blow-down far enough to start skinning him.

That's when I discovered I had left my "Green River butcher" in camp,.... but I had my little "neck-knife" and went to skinning him. (did I mention those little laminated Norwegian Steel blades held an edge well?)
I managed to skin the bear's head, paws, and complete carcass out with that little 2 1/2" blade. 

A couple years later (upon joining the AMM), it just didn't seem "right" to carry a blade made from that sort of "steel" so I gave the little knife to a friend, and have never forgotten my butcher when leaving camp again.   
   

[Ohio Joe]

Rondo, I still carry a Hudson Bay butcher knife I picked up at Two Dogs Trading Post when he was set up in Lewellen, Nebraska many years back. It has Antler slabs and it's the best knife I've ever carried. You can still make out the Hudson Bay emblem/stamp on it.  Oh, I don't use it much except at Rendezvous and when I dress for period correct muzzle loading shoots, (matter of fact in my picture to the left, if you look real close it's tucked in my belt / left rear).  I also carry a small neck patch knife I bought from Red Donker some years back before he passed on. It seldom ever gets used, but I carry it any way (I think much of it has to do with just remembering my ol' friend.) 

[Winter Hawk]

I'm going from memory here, which seems to be getting less reliable the older I get, but I seem to recall reading that laminated blades were being made back when the knights were riding around in tin suits on Belgians and Clydesdales.  The blacksmith would pound out the blade, then fold it back on itself and do it again getting many laminations that way.  The Japanese samurai swords were laminated in this way also.  30+ years ago there was an old sword smith who was still practicing the art of making them the old way.  Think of an oriental Williamsburg!

I once had two deer down on Prince of Wales Island and found the only knife I had with me was my Schrade trapper folding knife, and also no sharpening stone.  I was able to clean, skin and bone them both out but it was getting pretty slow going towards the end!  The carbon steel got a work out, for sure.

~WH~

[rollingb]

I'm going from memory here, which seems to be getting less reliable the older I get, but I seem to recall reading that laminated blades were being made back when the knights were riding around in tin suits on Belgians and Clydesdales.  The blacksmith would pound out the blade, then fold it back on itself and do it again getting many laminations that way.  The Japanese samurai swords were laminated in this way also.  30+ years ago there was an old sword smith who was still practicing the art of making them the old way.  Think of an oriental Williamsburg!

I once had two deer down on Prince of Wales Island and found the only knife I had with me was my Schrade trapper folding knife, and also no sharpening stone.  I was able to clean, skin and bone them both out but it was getting pretty slow going towards the end!  The carbon steel got a work out, for sure.

~WH~

I don't know much about the different compositions of steel,.... but I was alway under the impression that "laminated" steel was made up of a layer of thin hard steel "core" sandwiched between 2 layers of softer steel. (IIRC a description like that was used to describe the norwegian laminated knife blades years ago in Track Of The Wolf's catalog.)
How long that particular technique has been around, I have no idea.

It's always been my thought that steel "folded back on itself", hammered and folded again (repeatedly), was considered to be "Damascus" steel. (not to be confused with modern "etched" steel we often see in (some) replica knife blades made to "resemble" real Damascus)

Interesting topic! 

[jmforge]

That had to be a misprint as that would be like $900 today. That has to be 7 shilling 6 pence.

Yes, one knife probably CAN do it all, but was that the custom? 

In Sons of a Trackless Forest, Baker notes that the "large butcher knives" were sold at £7.6.0.  That's a pretty hefty sum, btw with the monthly wage for the hunters being on average about £4.  There are some hunters shown in the ledgers of the trading post as having purchased such an expensive knife.  There are others, however who bought knives for the cost of 5 shillings, including several entries where the individual bought two knives at the same time.  These are the most popular knives as far as sales on concerned, but is that because they wear out quickly, are used in trade, or are the owners carrying more than one knife for different jobs, upon their person?  Who knows?

The cost for a "butcher knife" (in contrast to a large, butcher knife) was £3.10.0. 
There is a mention of a "cutteau knife" that appears to have cost a mere 3 shillings.
A razor cost 3 shillings, which are sold at least twice in the ledgers, but the question then is for shaving or some other cutting purpose?

I have found that a very large butcher knife, while probably a very good item in a hand-to-hand fight, is not so good for dressing, skinning, and butchering deer.  I confess, that I am not dealing with animals the size of elk, and the bison are centuries gone from the East, so..., I might find a different result were I harvesting such large animals.

I have found that a 6" blade (which I wear on my hip) is quite sufficient for all of my camp chores, including butchering up a harvested deer.  A small 3" knife works very well  for dressing that deer, as it's a lot easier for me to wield that sharp little knife, "blind", inside the deer cavity when severing the internal connections for the organs at the throat, as well as  for skinning that deer.  Plus that little knife is good for cutting patches or for a very quick and crude knapping of the edge of my flint.  So I carry two at hand, plus I carry an additional 3" knife in the pack, in case I lose the one I normally carry.  Now at a historic site, when I am playing a person who might have to venture out to areas where I might meet an adversary while unloaded or while loading my rifle after dispatching one of a group of adversaries, I carry a very large knife.  It's mostly for show though.  So in that case I have three at hand, instead of my normal two.

LD

[jmforge]

"Real" damascus steel aka wootz, is a homogenous crucible steel that gets its pattern from a network of carbide dendrites, not from layering. It tends be VERY high carbon steel an it very tricky and SLOW to forge. Steel that is forged from multiple layers is pattern welded steel. Both are "etched' in some manner to show the pattern. 3 layer laminated blades are what the Japanese call "san mai". The Japanese bloomery steel is called tamahagane. The reason that you folded and forge welded is to purify it as it comes out of the bloomery furnace as a spongy looking mass with lots of impurities. Japanese swords are made from pieces of that "cleaned up steel" of varying carbon content. The more complex and expensive the sword,the more pieces were forged welded together. the surviving blades made in the late 13th and early 14ht Century by Goru Masamune, considered to be the greatest Japanese swordsmith ever, are made up of 7 separate small bars of steel of 3 different carbon contents. The simplest of Japanese nihonto are made from 2 pieces of steel, not 3. The hard steel is on the outside. It is forged to a shape kind of like a hot dog bun and the "hot dog" of lower carbon steel is inserted into teh "bun" and the whole thing is forged welded together. Older European blades wee pattern welded from multiple pieces of steel and iron. In the case of the Vikings, Franks and others, steel was rare and expensive, so it was used for the edge and the body was lower carbon iron.  At some point, smiths figured out that they could also make pretty patterns. All of those steels are still made today, although the techniques for smelting wootz were only recently rediscovered, like in the last 30 years.

I'm going from memory here, which seems to be getting less reliable the older I get, but I seem to recall reading that laminated blades were being made back when the knights were riding around in tin suits on Belgians and Clydesdales.  The blacksmith would pound out the blade, then fold it back on itself and do it again getting many laminations that way.  The Japanese samurai swords were laminated in this way also.  30+ years ago there was an old sword smith who was still practicing the art of making them the old way.  Think of an oriental Williamsburg!

I once had two deer down on Prince of Wales Island and found the only knife I had with me was my Schrade trapper folding knife, and also no sharpening stone.  I was able to clean, skin and bone them both out but it was getting pretty slow going towards the end!  The carbon steel got a work out, for sure.

~WH~

I don't know much about the different compositions of steel,.... but I was alway under the impression that "laminated" steel was made up of a layer of thin hard steel "core" sandwiched between 2 layers of softer steel. (IIRC a description like that was used to describe the norwegian laminated knife blades years ago in Track Of The Wolf's catalog.)
How long that particular technique has been around, I have no idea.

It's always been my thought that steel "folded back on itself", hammered and folded again (repeatedly), was considered to be "Damascus" steel. (not to be confused with modern "etched" steel we often see in (some) replica knife blades made to "resemble" real Damascus)

Interesting topic! 

[rollingb]

"Real" damascus steel aka wootz, is a homogenous crucible steel that gets its pattern from a network of carbide dendrites, not from layering. It tends be VERY high carbon steel an it very tricky and SLOW to forge. Steel that is forged from multiple layers is pattern welded steel. Both are "etched' in some manner to show the pattern. 3 layer laminated blades are what the Japanese call "san mai". The Japanese bloomery steel is called tamahagane. The reason that you folded and forge welded is to purify it as it comes out of the bloomery furnace as a spongy looking mass with lots of impurities. Japanese swords are made from pieces of that "cleaned up steel" of varying carbon content. The more complex and expensive the sword,the more pieces were forged welded together. the surviving blades made in the late 13th and early 14ht Century by Goru Masamune, considered to be the greatest Japanese swordsmith ever, are made up of 7 separate small bars of steel of 3 different carbon contents. The simplest of Japanese nihonto are made from 2 pieces of steel, not 3. The hard steel is on the outside. It is forged to a shape kind of like a hot dog bun and the "hot dog" of lower carbon steel is inserted into teh "bun" and the whole thing is forged welded together. Older European blades wee pattern welded from multiple pieces of steel and iron. In the case of the Vikings, Franks and others, steel was rare and expensive, so it was used for the edge and the body was lower carbon iron.  At some point, smiths figured out that they could also make pretty patterns. All of those steels are still made today, although the techniques for smelting wootz were only recently rediscovered, like in the last 30 years.

Thanks for that info jmforge. 
Just a guess on my part,.... but your name leads me to think "maybe you're a blacksmith"?

[Hanshi]

The advantage of the Japanese laminated katana was it was not prone to breakage as were the earlier, homogeneous steel swords.  A real katana built by a skilled master is immensely expensive.  Even a fine katana built by hand is as expensive as having a decent flinter built.

[RobD]

i cast a jaundiced eye at some of the modern thinking about the 18th and 19th century times.  too much has been manufactured via hollyweird.  weaponry was the best you could afford and/or make, and since you absolutely relied on weaponry every day of yer life for sustenance, protection and warfare, there was no such thing as too few or too big.  i'll bet there LOTS of variances of all weapons, from guns to knives and axes/'hawks.  at least from the colonial period forward, much of the knives used by all races and cultures were trade items brought over by the english and other europeans.  we see much of that in the discovered, uncovered artifacts that have survived.  for a knife, i think common sense prevailed and that would indicate a large knife in the vein of butchering/boning ... that'd work fine for critters, humans, and gun patches.