What knives were really carried?

[rollingb]

Some of you may find the following very interesting,........ http://www.manuellisaparty.com/articles/pfd's/Some%20Thoughts%20on%20Butchers.pdf

[Winter Hawk]

Great article, thank ye muchly!   

~WH~

[Uncle Russ]

Rondo, this is an old post and I wanted to bring it back up with a question.
In Hanson's book he stated "The only difference in the earlier to the later 1800s knives was that the nose got broader; otherwise they were the same width as the handle".

That got me to thinking....is this somehow NOT the reason the Green River knives became so popular?
GR knife blades run about "the size of the handle" for approx. 3/4 of the total length, then they get broader...a proven design when slicing meat.....

BTW; Finally got me a 'roundtoit' and got my 12' GR Butcher finished, complete with sheath.
Now I want a smaller one.

Uncle Russ...
 

[rollingb]

Rondo, this is an old post and I wanted to bring it back up with a question.
In Hanson's book he stated "The only difference in the earlier to the later 1800s knives was that the nose got broader; otherwise they were the same width as the handle".

That got me to thinking....is this somehow NOT the reason the Green River knives became so popular?
GR knife blades run about "the size of the handle" for approx. 3/4 of the total length, then they get broader...a proven design when slicing meat.....

BTW; Finally got me a 'roundtoit' and got my 12' GR Butcher finished, complete with sheath.
Now I want a smaller one.

Uncle Russ...

It may have been Russ,.... although I see little difference in the "nose design" of the Green River butchers during the time they were made.
Tangs,.... yes, as the "early" Green River butchers had tapered tangs.
Handles,... yes, as the earlier Green River butchers had their grips attached with (5) "pins" rather than the later (3) "rivets".

One thing that we must bear in mind about Hanson's information is,.... he's talking about "butchers" of the fur trade in general, and not all makers of  "butchers" had exactly the same blade design.

There were more than a few companies in England that tried to capitalize on the (J. Russell & Co. of Greenfield Mass.) "Green River" name/reputation.
For a time even I. Wilson (one of the more famous makers of "butcher" knives) in Sheffield England, stamped "Green River" on their blades to better compete with the american company during the fur trade era.

I suppose,.... as far as "butcher blade designs" of the 1830's-1840's goes, it could be argued that the J. Russell company in Mass. actually copied (closely) the blade designs of the older companies in England who had been making "butcher" knives since the 1700's. 

..... and Russ, we need to see some pictures of your GR butcher and sheath. 

I find butchers in the 7"-8" blade lengths handy for skinnin' AND butcherin' (if that is of any help to ya). 

   

[rollingb]

I remember reading a book about Dan'l Boone, back when I was in about 4th grade, and it described cutting the patch at the muzzle and carrying a special patch knife for this.  Over the years since then I have read of the various woodsmen (longhunters, plainsmen, mountain men, etc.) carrying hunting knives, butcher knives, fighting knives, patch knives, scalping knives, barlow (pocket) knives and I don't know what else.  It seems to me that, wandering the wilderness, a person would have the minimum of gear.  So if one knife will work for all the cutting chores, that is what one would carry, probably a medium sized butcher knife with which to dress out game, cut patches, stab the infidels etc.

So is there any provenance on what was carried and where?  Not in a wagon, but on a person so it was right at hand.  I would imagine that some of the reenactors have knowledge to pass on to this pilgrim!

Thanks,
~WH~

In the memoires of W. A. Ferris during his time in as an employee of the American Fur Company (1830-1835) he states,.... "When Gray reached his own lodge, his mangled frozen feet were examined; they were swollen to twice their natural size, and were quite black; however, at the expiration of two months, he was quite well, and the circumstances of his so narrow escape almost forgotten. He left his powder horn, shot‑pouch, belt, and knife at the field of death, which will account for his want of success, when endeavoring to kindle a fire; and for being compelled to construct his raft with a pen knife, which is a rare instrument in this country, because it is useless, save in such a peculiar case."

[Uncle Russ]

..... and Russ, we need to see some pictures of your GR butcher and sheath.

Well here are a couple of pictures....going back to when I started.
I had several choices of scales, and I started with the "dark bone" (the one on the left), which was a mistake, after I drilled them and was putting the brads in, I tapped the last brad just a wee bit too hard and I broke both sides of those scale! 

But actually, that was okay with me, because once I had a couple of brads in and hefted the knife I realized they were far too heavy and really put the knife off balance...but I thought what the heck, they look good and I'll go with it...then, after I broke 'em I was almost relieved...



Then I choose the nice Walnut, which was about 1/4 the weight of the bone scales, and the balance of the knife is, IMO, just about as good as it gets for actually working with a knife.
There was a time, and even on some knives I have today, where I actually preferred a little weight in the handle....but not with a working blade as long as the GR Butcher!

Here is the finished knife and sheath....I screwed-up on the sheath, a couple of times, and I have full intentions of redoing a sheath sometime down the road, but the knife itself turned out as well as I had expected. I believe this is a very "useable" knife as it feels right in the hand.
For a "big" knife I feel I can keep control of that blade fairly well.



Here is a picture of that knife and my all time favorite knives for working when hunting.
The top one is a small, and very handy, knife made by Marbles...it's a old knife that I have used as a patch knife, a skinning knife, and a flat out eating knife. Like me, it has been around a while.

The second one down is a Puma...although old enough to vote twice over it keeps right on tickin', and holds an edge like no other knife I have ever owned....I have actually been guilty of using a rock to beat on the blade when bustin' an Elk pelvic while quartering out an Elk in the Idaho Bitterroot Mountains...but Elk hunting is a young man's game, and I have likely made my last hunt in the high country.



Uncle Russ...

[rollingb]

Russ,.... them's some nice knives. 

When you mentioned your Puma "holds an edge like no other",.... the thought of an old "Taylor's" skinnin' knife popped into my mind.
On page 112 of "The Skinning Knife" by M. H. Cole, he shows a picture of a Taylor's skinner that has it's blade sharpened away clear up to it's spine, by a stockman in New Zealand,.... along with the picture, it states,.... It came with the information that the knife had skinned a total of 50,234 Sheep, Lambs, Calves, Cattle, and Pigs.
This important testimony means the knife only cost a very small fraction per animal. The stockman also stated "it's still good for skinning a few hundred more".   

[Winter Hawk]

Those are nice looking knives, that's for sure!   

I had a Marble's knife for a while, not sure of the model.  It was given to me at a time when I didn't have a knife and was on a communications site in the Alaska bush.  It had been used to cut roofing and was a mess with tar all over.  It cleaned up nice though, but I didn't really know what I had and ended up giving it away years later.  Then I found out that real Marble's knives were collector's items....   I just ordered a look-alike with Damascus steel blade.  We'll see how that is, it has a 90 day return period if I'm not ecstatic about it so I'd only be out the shipping if I don't like it.

~WH~

[PetahW]

.

It appears that a butcher knife was the hands-down winner, for the most commonly carried/used wilderness knife of the early 1800's.

It likewise appears that smaller pocket & table/eating knives predominated in the more settled/civilized areas of the same time, with butcher knives relegated to the workplaces of kitchens & slaughterhouses.

Today, I would carry a hobo knife in my pocket, and a "camp knife" or medium-sized bowie on my belt or pack.






.

[rollingb]

Here is my "English Scalper",.... the handle is made up of pieces of walnut, solid brass, and osage.
The brass slabs can be used as a ball-starter on tight loads. 

[Two Steps]

Wow! I really like that one Rondo...and the sheath too! 
Al

[rollingb]

Thanks Al,... this knife has served me well for more than 30 years, skinned and field dressed many antelope, deer, moose, and caribou with it. 

[Winter Hawk]

The Marbles knife knock off was a disappointment, and went back the same day it arrived. I had ordered it from an ad from Stauer in Fur Fish Game magazine.  They didn't give the discounted price, it was much smaller than I was expecting, and made in Pakistan.  Now I have nothing against the Pakistanis, but for the price I could have bought another Case knife made right here in the USA.  I should have known better!  Anyway, I'll be using the old Case model 366 from now on.

~WH~