Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Shooting Traditional Firearms and Weapons => General Interest => Topic started by: Ohio Joe on March 18, 2018, 10:10:34 PM
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No, I'm not opening up a comparison debate about these two lock ignitions. Heck, like many of you out there, I use them both, and enjoy them both... :bl th up Fact is, the first ML I ever shot was a flintlock back in the early/mid '70's (can't remember the exact year for sure) but it belonged to one of our NCO's who kept one in my Arms Room while stationed at Ft. Riley. I only shot it a couple times with him and it was enough to get me hooked. When I ETS'd in June of '77, one of the first things I did was get a couple CVA caplock rifle kits and have been shooting muzzleloading firearm's faithfully since then.
Now I didn't get back to the flintlock ignition until about 20 years ago (or there abouts) anyway, even though I have rifles in both ignitions - over the last six to eight years I've been straying further away from the caplock simply because of the price of caps. They're getting more expensive all the time. Now that's not to say flints haven't gone up because they have as well... However,,, the one thing I can do with a flintlock that I can't do with a caplock, is pick up a piece of flint or chert off the ground and make a temporary workable rock to shave metal sparks off my frizzen into my pan of prime and set off my charge.
I think weighing the options of ignition should play a part in decision making (for me) of what ignition to go with. Obviously the flintlock wins out in the above mentioned... However,,, the caplock is very handy in as much as you don't need to prime a pan from your powder horn (or priming horn)... Simply cap the nipple from a brass cap holder or leather cap holder, and you're good to go.
As far as humidity with both systems drawing moister, I personally believe they are about even once that first charge goes off in high humidity. Both systems seem to require some tender loving care between shots on humid days.
Flintching? Sure, that exist for a while with the flintlock but the shooter soon shoots his/her way through that and it's no longer a problem. With the caplock we don't worry about such things.
Follow through? Well, both ignition system's require follow through in my opinion. The flintlock (again IMHO) may need just a bit more,,, but that could just be a mental thing? In any event follow through with any firearm system should be second nature, and with the both the flint and cap locks I think one should always try to use the same amount of time.
Cleanup? I found that it takes the same amount of time for both the cap and flint locks.
Anyway, I've rambled on enough and perhaps this post belongs up in the Campfire board, but after all this typing I don't want to risk loosing it, by moving it now. Also, if some of you soon to be builders were on the fence about what to build, (flint or cap), this might be of some assistance.
I will end by saying this one last thing; Flintlock (for me) have always been way more fun to shoot, but go with what you like... :shake
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Good thoughts, Joe. Gives one something to think about.
I started out shooting percussion and have always preferred it.
BUT
Over the years, I have tried to even force myself to go with flints. Once, I even sold off all my percussion rifles and pistols. What a stupid thing to do. But, it was a beautiful rifle and it wasn't cheap. Once I had it, I started saving for another percussion rifle. Of all things, I replaced it with a T/C New Englander in .50 cal. no less. I don't particularly even care for .50's, but it did shoot pretty well.
So, now, I have one flint and one percussion, and that is probably what I will go out with. Then, it won't really matter.
But flint or percussion, it is a personal choice which way a person wants to go, there is no wrong answer. For me, the right answer is percussion. And I will probably never run out of caps, I have a pretty good supply laid in, especially considering how much shooting I do anymore.
John
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I have to admit to being able to shoot a percussion better than a flinter (a flaw on my part entirely),.... strange thing is, I have more flintlocks than percussions. :o :)
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I have to admit to being able to shoot a percussion better than a flinter (a flaw on my part entirely),.... strange thing is, I have more flintlocks than percussions. :o :)
Same here, as you and John, Rondo. I think probably because we've got that favorite percussion, and it has that right feel to it... :bl th up
Say, Cindy and I will be heading down to Kearney the latter part of April. I'll PM you and Beth the dates as soon as I confirm it tonight. :shake
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I’ve owned and shot both over the last 40+ years. I have come to prefer flintlock, for the reasons mentioned above. If I had to depend on one gun for survival, it would be a flintlock.
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I have shot and owned both. Liked them both. Currently all I have for muzzleloading is flint, so that is what I shoot. I doubt I will ever buy another percussion or flint gun. I am happy with what I currently have, and don't foresee them wearing out before I do. Shoot what ya have.
K
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I doubt I will ever buy another percussion or flint gun. I am happy with what I currently have, and don't foresee them wearing out before I do. Shoot what ya have.
+1! I drool over what is out there, but realistically I will stay with what I have.
And Bigsmoke, Bobby Hoyt will bore that .50 0ut to .54 for a very reasonable fee, he did it for me!
-Kees-
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I doubt I will ever buy another percussion or flint gun. I am happy with what I currently have, and don't foresee them wearing out before I do. Shoot what ya have.
+1! I drool over what is out there, but realistically I will stay with what I have.
And Bigsmoke, Bobby Hoyt will bore that .50 0ut to .54 for a very reasonable fee, he did it for me!
-Kees-
Kees,
That ol' New Englander is so far gone that I just barely remembered it. IIRC, I got it just barely after they were released. They later released them with a .54 barrel, but I think I had sold it by then and I got a nice .54 fullstock instead. Percussion, of course.
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FWIW
Both my .50 cal flinchlock A&H (Austin & Halleck) Mountain Rifle's exhibit virtually instantaneous ignition - noticeably faster than any of my caplocks - using only a little Holy Black (same as the main charge - FFFg) in the bottom of the pan. :toast
(One of my identical A&H Mountain Rifle's has a fast twist barrel for conicals, the other a slow twist for PRB's)
(https://www.gunsamerica.com/UserImages/201273/930469647/wm_10799028.jpg)
(https://www.gunsamerica.com/UserImages/201273/930469647/wm_10799027.jpg)
.
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My first muzzleloader was a CVA Mountain Rifle, .50 flinter that I bought in the very early 80's. I shot the heck out of that gun for several years, hunted with it often and successfully, and I can think of only 2 or 3 times it didn't go BANG when I pulled the trigger. I only have the one capper at the present time, I need to rectify that situation :)
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My first muzzleloader was a CVA Mountain Rifle, .50 flinter that I bought in the very early 80's. I shot the heck out of that gun for several years, hunted with it often and successfully, and I can think of only 2 or 3 times it didn't go BANG when I pulled the trigger. I only have the one capper at the present time, I need to rectify that situation :)
I have always liked the CVA Mountain Rifle. Mine is an old (.50 cal), and the other a (.45 cal) which I cut the barrel down to 28 inches - installed a new breech plug & drum, front & rear sight's, and made a new walnut stock for it. I also installed a Large Siler Cap Lock on it, then gave it to my wife for her rifle. That 32" x 15/16 barrel in .45 caliber was just a bit to heavy for her. Anyway, we use to enter the couples shoot at the Rendezvous but haven't done that in years. I like those old CVA Mountain Rifle barrels with their .008 depth rifling grooves and 1 in 66 twist. They're shooters for sure. I think Douglas made/supplied those barrels if I recall correctly? :bl th up
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Hey Joe, that almost sounds like the guy who bought Daniel Boones tomahawk. The head was replaced two times and the handle five times. :Doh! :lol sign
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Hey Joe, that almost sounds like the guy who bought Daniel Boones tomahawk. The head was replaced two times and the handle five times. :Doh! :lol sign
:laffing It do at that! :laffing
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Hey Joe, that almost sounds like the guy who bought Daniel Boones tomahawk. The head was replaced two times and the handle five times. :Doh! :lol sign
Hank, Hank, Hank, what's a mother to do??? :Doh!
You and Joe crack me up!
:laffing :applaud
Uncle Russ...
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Flintlock for me is more dependable. If you do what you're supposed to do it will always go off. Sharp flint, dry powder in the pan, vent clear. I wrote a poem some years ago to that effect
Flint be sharp to make good spark, no damp be in the pan
pick the vent it must be clear to do the job at hand.
plug the vent with feathered quill when storing for the night
do your part so carefully and it will serve you right."
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I shoot a Jim Chambers' PA Fowler, smoothbore 62 cal flintlock assembled by Paul Hildebrand. A Jim Chambers' Issac Haines flint riflegun in 50 cal with special extra slow twist, shallow groove rifling, assembled by Brent Gurtek out of Duluth. And finally a Jim Chambers' Short English rifle in flint that was also assembled by Brent Gurtek. All of them function properly and generally hit what I point em at. The weak link is always me. I have owned percussin guns in the past-- a Lyman Great Plains rifle in 50 cal, an italian made 1863 Zouave 58 cal rifled musket, and an italian made 1858 remington 44 revolver. All of them worked fine and again the weak link is generally who stares back at me from the mirror.
My go-to gun for hunting is the smoothbore as I can load it with ball or shot and I think the stock fits me the best because I tend to generally shoot it better than the others, not exactly sure why.
Ken
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Hey Joe, that almost sounds like the guy who bought Daniel Boones tomahawk. The head was replaced two times and the handle five times. :Doh! :lol sign
:Doh! Hank, I forgot to mention that I also made a new trigger and trigger plate for that rifle, and installed a new trigger-guard as well. Yes sir, a true original CVA .45 caliber Mountain rifle with a few ::) modifications. The owner of Daniel Boone's tomahawk with the replacement head and handle would be so proud of me.... :applaud :laffing
Oh geezzz :Doh! I replaced the butt plate and toe plate also... My memory sure ain't what it use to be... :Doh!
Well it appears I also replaced the under-rib, and thimbles, and entry thimble... :P
Okay,,,,okay,,,, 28 inches of the barrel is still original... :hairy
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You sure you're not the fella what bought that hawk? ::)
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You sure you're not the fella what bought that hawk? ::)
Hmmm,,, I probably got it around here some place. ;D
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I started out with both cap and flint back in the 1960s. I still own long guns with both types of ignition and like both. Most of mine are flint and I hunt exclusively with flint. The cap guns do see occasional range time simply because they are really nice rifles and I like shooting them. And since I can't shoot worth a flip, anyway, I'm equally bad with both types. :o :hairy :toast
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Like so many folks I started with a CVA mountain rifle kit and the matching pistol both in percussion and 50 cal. My eldest son has them now and he shoots them very well.
Early on I followed some sound advice and never bought an over the counter flint lock. It seems that any inexpensive cap lock can easily be made to work but so many things can be done wrong when building a flint gun. All the shooters I know who have negative opinions of flint locks have had bad experiences with factory made guns. It's understandable, a person can only take so much frustration before throwing in the towel.
I now have two flintlock guns, the custom rifle I've been bragging about and the NorthStar West Chief's Gun. I love shooting them and they are as reliable and the ignition is as fast as any percussion gun.
My advice to anyone starting out in muzzleloading is this, if you are not ready to spend the money for a semi-custom or full custom gun with a best quality lock, do not buy a flintlock. And if you are prepared to spend the dollars it will help to have at least one flintlock shooting friend who can guide you through the learning curve. I know there are folks who have factory flint rifles and are very satisfied with them. But I know just as many who bought those same brand rifles and had so many problems that they became discouraged and gave up.
Recently one of the new members of our club purchased one of the better quality import flint rifles. He was having so many misfires and problems that he wasn't able to finish a five round match in the time allotted. (30 minutes) After several monthly matches of this frustration and trying every tweek and fix suggested by others he was ready to give it up. Fortunately, through a group effort, they finally got the last issue fixed and the rifle started functioning as it should.
Had that fellow not had several knowledgeable flint shooters helping him he would certainly have quit.
If you really have your heart set on a flintlock and must have a factory gun, I strongly recommend buying one used from someone who will show you how to load and clean it and take you to shoot it before you buy it. Buying it new is a crapshoot. You may get a good one and you may not. Buying a used rifle from someone who is not willing to let you shoot it first guarantees you will get a problem they are trying to get rid of.
So in a nutshell, if you have to go the inexpensive route to get started go with a percussion lock. If you ever get to shoot a good quality flintlock you will love it.
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As I thought about starting on my muzzle loader adventure I considered the pros and cons of percussion cap vs. flintlock. After reading lots of comments here in these forums I decided to start with a percussion rifle. I figured I had lots to learn first about the basics of black powder shooting, the equipment, taking care of it properly, etc. before a delved into the mysteries of keeping a flintlock in good working order.
For now I'm focusing on keeping my percussion rifle in working order. Already I've encountered several of the minor difficulties I had read about on this site. So far I've had cap failure due to caps sticking unnoticed inside the cup of the hammer; a failure to fire with 3 successive caps working but no big bang - resolved with a few grains of powder introduced via the bolster screw (and I've learned to fire a couple caps before the first load of powder of the day); and, most recently, after a day at the range discovered that my rifle would go off half cocked - took some careful reading of manual and adjusting of trigger set screws to remedy that one (I hope, I haven't been back to the range with it yet).
Once I'm feeling comfortable with my knowledge and skill with the percussion cap and think I'm ready to to try a flintlock, I'll be back on this site looking for advice on which to try. I'll definitely remember prairie dog's words here. They echo what a good friend often told me, "It only costs a little more to go first class and it is always worth it."
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Okay,,,,okay,,,, 28 inches of the barrel is still original... :hairy
Can't help but wonder about the rest of the barrel??? :laffing
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They're shooters for sure. I think Douglas made/supplied those barrels if I recall correctly?
I believe the early American made CVAs had Douglas barrels. Later when Douglas quit making black powder barrels, Deer Creek bought the machinery from them. When Deer Creek was selling their version of the CVA Mountain Rifle (after buying CVA's inventory when they stopped making them) they provided their in-house made barrels. I believe the new owners are also making the barrels although I don't see the kits available any more.
-Kees-
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I have one of those Deer Creek barrels. It is a shooter! [ Invalid Attachment ]
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:hairy
Itty bitty groups, It's good for the soul!
Uncle Russ...
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They're shooters for sure. I think Douglas made/supplied those barrels if I recall correctly?
I believe the early American made CVAs had Douglas barrels. Later when Douglas quit making black powder barrels, Deer Creek bought the machinery from them. When Deer Creek was selling their version of the CVA Mountain Rifle (after buying CVA's inventory when they stopped making them) they provided their in-house made barrels. I believe the new owners are also making the barrels although I don't see the kits available any more.
-Kees-
My CVA's were from the late 70's, and I can't remember who told me they had the Douglas barrels (may have been the guy I bought them from who also did rebuilds on motors and had a gun shop on the side), or someone from Shawnee Long Rifles (the club I belonged to back then), but anyway - they were and still are good shooting barrels. They don't get much use anymore, but I could never part with 'em as they were the first 3 muzzle loading rifles I bought (kit's - 2 Mountain Rifles and 1 Kentucky Rifle), so I got quite an attachment to them.
Now I also have a 1" x .50 cal Douglas barreled X-Stick rifle, and the best I ever shot with it was a 50-4X, however that was in practice. I also shot a 50-4X with my 1-1/8" x .50 cal Green Mountain Barreled X-Stick Rifle - and again that was in practice... Back in the day when game time came I could only muster 47's to 49's out 'em with some X's, but that's on me - not the barrels and what they are capable of. I did win a few 3rd place medals with 'em both,,, but these days the X-stick game is so "sight" modern, it doesn't even make those X-Stick Matches enjoyable.